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 Post subject: Why pick sides?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:07 pm 
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Why do we side with Israel and not the Palistinians?? I for one am not "picking sides", but we do seem to never hear the side of Palistine. So here it is:

Ghandi himself made a good point regarding this:

"My sympathies are all with the Jews. I have known them intimately in South Africa. Some of them became life-long companions. Through these friends I came to learn much of their age-long persecution. They have been the untouchables of Christianity. The parallel between their treatment by Christians and the treatment of untouchables by Hindus is very close. Religious sanction has been invoked in both cases for the justification of the inhuman treatment meted out to them. Apart from the friendships, therefore, there is the more common universal reason for my sympathy for the Jews.

But my sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice. The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me. The sanction for it is sought in the Bible and the tenacity with which the Jews have hankered after return to Palestine. Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country their home where they are born and where they earn their livelihood?

Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and in-human to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home. "


Now does Ghandi have a point? We as a country side with Israel and find the actions of Palistinians to be that of terrorists. But wouldn't we fight to protect our land? Just as the Indians fought us to protect their land to just be called savages. And then given small pieces of land to live on? If the Bible is used to claim the land, then aren't Arabs the descendants of Abraham also? His son Ishmael is regarded as the forefather of the Arabs is he not? Palestinians have lived there going back to the earliest Canaanites and even before the invasion of the Israelites and later the invasion of the Romans. Also, the UN Partition Plan was meant for 56% of the land to be for the Jewish State, 42% for Arab State, and 2% for internationaliszed Jerusalem and its surrounds. But many Palistinians were quickly forced out of their homes or massacred, which increased the Jewish State to 77%. Not to mention the land they lost after the 1967 War. Just something to think about.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:42 pm 
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I side with no one. That's how we get involved in so many wars. It is their problem the U.S. is ours. I don't care what happens to either of them.................Bill


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:49 am 
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The Jews, I find are very, very selfish. They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as D[isplaced] P[ersons] as long as the Jews get special treatment. Yet when they have power, physical, financial, or political, neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the underdog. Put an underdog on top and it makes no difference whether his name is Russian, Jewish, Negro, Management, Labor, Mormon, or Baptist he goes haywire. I've found very, very few who remember their past condition when prosperity comes.
-- Harry Truman, from his private diary (1947)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:19 pm 
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Israel shells Gaza: 225 killed, 400 injured

As much as I rail against the U.S. government, I don't think there has ever been a government in the western world that has been so callous towards innocent life as the Israelis. Every Israeli life that gets taken in a terrorist attack is paid back a hundredfold against the Palestinians (innocent and guilty alike). This goes far beyond self-defense, these people are monsters. I have no sympathy for Israel.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:58 pm 
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According to the Israeli Security Agency, over 30000 people have been murdered by Palestinian terrorists from 2000-2007. In 2002, there were 426 suicide attacks in Israel which was reduced to 13 in 2007 as a result of increased military presence in the Gaza strip. Yet, Hamas continues to receive training from Iran, and weapons still come into Gaza through the underground via Egypt.

Though I do wish each side would work this out, I can't imagine the US Government's reaction if we had 426 suicide bombings in one year on our soil. Remember our reaction to 9/11?

Israel is justified in protecting itself.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:02 am 
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cwbjr67 wrote:
Israel is justified in protecting itself.


I always feel bad for any innocent lives lost, but such is warfare. Always has been the case. Technology can only go so far.

It always amazes me when people get upset when innocent lives are lost as part of a retaliation. The instigators strike from the midst of the very innocent that suffer and then retreat to hide behind them. Why is there no outrage against the terrorists who bring the violence into the general population?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:04 pm 
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cwbjr67 wrote:
According to the Israeli Security Agency, over 30000 people have been murdered by Palestinian terrorists from 2000-2007.

Baloney. That is a grossly exaggerated number from a biased source supported by no other agency on earth, IF it's even real (see below)...

cwbjr67 wrote:
In 2002, there were 426 suicide attacks in Israel which was reduced to 13 in 2007 as a result of increased military presence in the Gaza strip.

Wrong. 13 in 2007 refers to the total Israeli fatalities that year, not the number of attacks.

Straight from the Shabak you're supposedly quoting from:
http://www.shabak.gov.il/English/EnTerrorData/Pages/MonthlySummaryMay2008.aspx


cwbjr67 wrote:
Yet, Hamas continues to receive training from Iran, and weapons still come into Gaza through the underground via Egypt.

Yet Isreal still continues to use tanks and bomber jets to crush people fighting with light arms and highly inaccurate hand-held rocketry. Please, complaining about arms?


cwbjr67 wrote:
Israel is justified in protecting itself.

My complaint is that their retaliation in the name of protecting themselves FAR EXCEEDS the damage and death caused by the original terrorist attack. Hey, kind of like the U.S. response in Afghanistan and Iraq.

IN REALITY, 09/29/00 to November, 2008...
Children killed
123 Israeli
1,050 Palestinian

Total killed
1,062 Israelis
4,876 Palestinians (a very conservative estimate) (+250 this week)

Total injured/maimed
8,341 Israelis
33,034 Palestinians

U.S. Federal Aid, per day (Fiscal Year 2007)
$6,800,000 Israel
$300,000 Palestine

UN Condemnations, 1955-1992
65 Israel
0 Palestine

Political Prisoners Currently Detained by Opposing Forces
1 Israeli (held by Palestine)
10,756 Palestinians (held by Israel)

Demolition of Homes, 1967-present
0 Israeli
18,147 Palestinian

Illegal Settlements on Others Land
223 Israeli homes on Palestinian land
0 Palestinian homes on Israeli land

Facts from http://www.ifamericansknew.org/index.html


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:16 pm 
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Quoting a website sponsored by a group with questionable motives and who is believed to increase statistical references to their own end is not very convincing.

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Music is like candy; to get to the good stuff, you have to remove the rappers...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:43 pm 
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WE ARE SPARTACI wrote:
Quoting a website sponsored by a group with questionable motives

Support your claim.

WE ARE SPARTACI wrote:
and who is believed to increase statistical references to their own end

Support your claim.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:56 pm 
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Ms Weir is a journalist. In my mind that makes her a professional manipulator of facts. I will stop short of calling her a liar however, I won't believe a word she says either. Further, I didn't read everything in her site but I did see on the home page as I remember, she said Israel cost American taxpayers $15 million a day. I didn't see any citation as to source of that information...............Bill


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:34 pm 
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Hostrauser wrote:
cwbjr67 wrote:
According to the Israeli Security Agency, over 30000 people have been murdered by Palestinian terrorists from 2000-2007.

Baloney. That is a grossly exaggerated number from a biased source supported by no other agency on earth, IF it's even real (see below)...

cwbjr67 wrote:
In 2002, there were 426 suicide attacks in Israel which was reduced to 13 in 2007 as a result of increased military presence in the Gaza strip.

Wrong. 13 in 2007 refers to the total Israeli fatalities that year, not the number of attacks.

Straight from the Shabak you're supposedly quoting from:
http://www.shabak.gov.il/English/EnTerrorData/Pages/MonthlySummaryMay2008.aspx


cwbjr67 wrote:
Yet, Hamas continues to receive training from Iran, and weapons still come into Gaza through the underground via Egypt.

Yet Isreal still continues to use tanks and bomber jets to crush people fighting with light arms and highly inaccurate hand-held rocketry. Please, complaining about arms?


cwbjr67 wrote:
Israel is justified in protecting itself.

My complaint is that their retaliation in the name of protecting themselves FAR EXCEEDS the damage and death caused by the original terrorist attack. Hey, kind of like the U.S. response in Afghanistan and Iraq.

IN REALITY, 09/29/00 to November, 2008...
Children killed
123 Israeli
1,050 Palestinian

Total killed
1,062 Israelis
4,876 Palestinians (a very conservative estimate) (+250 this week)

Total injured/maimed
8,341 Israelis
33,034 Palestinians

U.S. Federal Aid, per day (Fiscal Year 2007)
$6,800,000 Israel
$300,000 Palestine

UN Condemnations, 1955-1992
65 Israel
0 Palestine

Political Prisoners Currently Detained by Opposing Forces
1 Israeli (held by Palestine)
10,756 Palestinians (held by Israel)

Demolition of Homes, 1967-present
0 Israeli
18,147 Palestinian

Illegal Settlements on Others Land
223 Israeli homes on Palestinian land
0 Palestinian homes on Israeli land

Facts from http://www.ifamericansknew.org/index.html


Listen, Kevin, I don't want you thinking I am unsympathetic towards the Palestinians. I want to see peace. However, Israel is a sovereign nation, and they are under attack. Even if it is a David and Goliath situation, they have a right to defend themselves and to develop their nation as they see fit.

As far as my minor misquotes from a biased source are concerned... :P :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:41 am 
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So, let's say some crazy Minutemen from San Diego decide to launch rockets into Tijuana, killing three people. By your rationale, Mexico has the right to bomb San Diego into the ground?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:45 am 
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Blurae1 wrote:
Further, I didn't read everything in her site but I did see on the home page as I remember, she said Israel cost American taxpayers $15 million a day. I didn't see any citation as to source of that information...............Bill

I guessed you missed the big link right under that graph (on the homepage) that said "VIEW SOURCE"?

Quote:
The source for US aid to Israel during Fiscal Year 2007 is the Congressional Research Service’s “U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel,” written by Jeremy M. Sharp, Specialist in Middle Eastern Affairs, updated January 2, 2008. According to this report, the US gave Israel at least $2,500.2 million in 2007. This number does not include the $137.894 million we spent on joint U.S.-Israeli missile defense projects or the $1.4 billion in loan guarantees made available to Israel in 2007. (MORE)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:48 am 
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Hostrauser wrote:
So, let's say some crazy Minutemen from San Diego decide to launch rockets into Tijuana, killing three people. By your rationale, Mexico has the right to bomb San Diego into the ground?

Not a good analogy. Gaza is not recognized internationally as a sovereign nation but was most recently governed by Israel, which still controls its airspace, etc. Furthermore, Hamas rules Gaza as a duly elected government. It isn't just some crazy folks who happen to live in the area causing the problem.
Suppose a bunch of Minutemen were elected to become Tijuana's government and they started lobbing bombs at the rest of Mexico. I'd say, yeah, Mexico would have the right to deal with the situation militarily.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:46 pm 
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Well, here's a surprise: I completely disagree. The indiscriminate killing of civilians (even if there are some guilty among the innocent) will never, ever be justifiable to me. Not in the name of "national security" or "fighting terror" or anything else.


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