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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:39 am 
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Hostrauser wrote:
Well, here's a surprise: I completely disagree. The indiscriminate killing of civilians (even if there are some guilty among the innocent) will never, ever be justifiable to me. Not in the name of "national security" or "fighting terror" or anything else.

The Israelis are not targeting innocents. Big, big difference if military or terrorists strongholds are targeted and there is collateral damage. With some notable exceptions, innocents seem to be the target of choice for today's Middle Eastern based terrorist groups.

"The indiscriminate killing of civilians (even if there are some guilty among the innocent) will never, ever be justifiable to me. Not in the name of "national security" or "fighting terror" or anything else."

Interesting...yet didn't you use a picture of Che Guevara as your avatar for quite some time?

Supporting my claim.com

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:13 am 
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Hostrauser wrote:
So, let's say some crazy Minutemen from San Diego decide to launch rockets into Tijuana, killing three people. By your rationale, Mexico has the right to bomb San Diego into the ground?


Here's what the President-elect would do.

http://thepage.time.com/2008/12/29/israel-defense-minister-quotes-obama-in-defending-attacks/


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:23 pm 
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No, what I didn't do was totally explain. You criticism was fair. The site quoted from was "Remember the Children". When I clicked that link the site didn't say where they got the info from. They were asking for money also. I saw nothing credible on that site. I felt the info was contaminated twice over. I can't disprove the the claim, but I don't feel I can prove it either............................Bill


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:34 pm 
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http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/06/iftikhar.gaza/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Excellent commentary. I agree 100%.

Quote:
The recent carnage in Gaza has left little doubt that within the tortured dynamic of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, both the chicken and the egg have completely and utterly lost their minds.

Regardless of who's to blame for the origins of the conflict, shame on both Hamas and Israel for their recent violations of international law that have led to a humanitarian inferno in Gaza and southern Israel.

Hamas is to be blamed for its sophomoric provocation of its neighbor's military wrath by firing missiles into southern Israel. Israel also should be condemned for its disproportionately inhumane onslaught in Gaza, which has currently left 555 people dead and 2,750 injured, according to Palestinian medical sources cited by CNN. The United Nations estimates that at least 25 percent of Palestinians killed have been civilians.

Simply put, both sides have committed acts tantamount to "war crimes," and both continue to violate international law repeatedly in this nightmare.

(MORE)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:51 pm 
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Hostrauser wrote:
Well, here's a surprise: I completely disagree. The indiscriminate killing of civilians (even if there are some guilty among the innocent) will never, ever be justifiable to me. Not in the name of "national security" or "fighting terror" or anything else.


The discrimination is in the identification of terrorists. International law permits and supports the action of a nation in defending its citizens. If 15,000 terrorists shoot missiles that hit a kindergarten for the purpose of killing civilians, the attacked nation has a right to kill all 15,000 terrorists.

The life of a single innocent is considered to be more important than the lives of 15,000 terrorists.

By the way, the Palestinians that live in the West Bank aren't complaining/protesting too much; no shop closures, and no one paying attention to other terrorists groups calls to start another intifada. Its reasonable to ask why.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:59 pm 
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Hostrauser wrote:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/06/iftikhar.gaza/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Excellent commentary. I agree 100%.

Quote:
The recent carnage in Gaza has left little doubt that within the tortured dynamic of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, both the chicken and the egg have completely and utterly lost their minds.

Regardless of who's to blame for the origins of the conflict, shame on both Hamas and Israel for their recent violations of international law that have led to a humanitarian inferno in Gaza and southern Israel.

Hamas is to be blamed for its sophomoric provocation of its neighbor's military wrath by firing missiles into southern Israel. Israel also should be condemned for its disproportionately inhumane onslaught in Gaza, which has currently left 555 people dead and 2,750 injured, according to Palestinian medical sources cited by CNN. The United Nations estimates that at least 25 percent of Palestinians killed have been civilians.

Simply put, both sides have committed acts tantamount to "war crimes," and both continue to violate international law repeatedly in this nightmare.

(MORE)


Not really. There is no moral equivalency between a democracy based in morality and terrorist organizations dedicated to violence and destruction. These articles try to establish a moral equivalency that is groundless and non existent.

Gaza is a slum. The terrorists had a shot to use copious amounts of resources to build a better life and environment for the Gazans. Instead, they built an Iranian military base and used it as a launching pad for attacks.

What the heck is the expected result of that? The current situation. Very very predictable. No surprise and clearly justified.

Furthermore, there is no disproportionate response to the firing of a single missile for the sole purpose of killing civilians. The proportionality argument is beyond absurd. Taken to its extremes, that concept says basically " If more innocent Israeli citizens had been killed, Israel's response would be more acceptable."


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 Post subject: Re: Why pick sides?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:31 pm 
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SCVStar wrote:
Why do we side with Israel and not the Palistinians?? I for one am not "picking sides", but we do seem to never hear the side of Palistine. So here it is:

Ghandi himself made a good point regarding this:

"My sympathies are all with the Jews. I have known them intimately in South Africa. Some of them became life-long companions. Through these friends I came to learn much of their age-long persecution. They have been the untouchables of Christianity. The parallel between their treatment by Christians and the treatment of untouchables by Hindus is very close. Religious sanction has been invoked in both cases for the justification of the inhuman treatment meted out to them. Apart from the friendships, therefore, there is the more common universal reason for my sympathy for the Jews.

But my sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice. The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me. The sanction for it is sought in the Bible and the tenacity with which the Jews have hankered after return to Palestine. Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country their home where they are born and where they earn their livelihood?

Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and in-human to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home. "


Now does Ghandi have a point? We as a country side with Israel and find the actions of Palistinians to be that of terrorists. But wouldn't we fight to protect our land? Just as the Indians fought us to protect their land to just be called savages. And then given small pieces of land to live on? If the Bible is used to claim the land, then aren't Arabs the descendants of Abraham also? His son Ishmael is regarded as the forefather of the Arabs is he not? Palestinians have lived there going back to the earliest Canaanites and even before the invasion of the Israelites and later the invasion of the Romans. Also, the UN Partition Plan was meant for 56% of the land to be for the Jewish State, 42% for Arab State, and 2% for internationaliszed Jerusalem and its surrounds. But many Palistinians were quickly forced out of their homes or massacred, which increased the Jewish State to 77%. Not to mention the land they lost after the 1967 War. Just something to think about.


This quote from Ghandi does need to be mentioned in its appropriate context. For those of you who have not seen the movie " Partition," I highly recommend it. Anyway, Ghandi was opposed to the partition of India and Pakistan ( I agree personally that this was a mistake-merely an opinion). This quote was made in direct relation to his feelings about partition.

Moreover, the actual original partition in Palestine mentioned above included present day Jordan. If you look at the pre-1948 map, Jews had already bought almost all of the land that became Israel in 1948 and most of the Jews living in Israel at the time of 1948 were not Holocaust survivors that magically appeared in present day Israel.

Most folks have no clue on this so I thought I'd throw it in.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:34 pm 
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Hostrauser wrote:
The Jews, I find are very, very selfish. They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as D[isplaced] P[ersons] as long as the Jews get special treatment. Yet when they have power, physical, financial, or political, neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the underdog. Put an underdog on top and it makes no difference whether his name is Russian, Jewish, Negro, Management, Labor, Mormon, or Baptist he goes haywire. I've found very, very few who remember their past condition when prosperity comes.
-- Harry Truman, from his private diary (1947)


I'm curious as to why this was posted after an introduction regarding the current situation in the middle east. Moderator is this your personal belief about Jews(including Jews who are Americans living in the United States) and how is this related to the middle east conflict?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:46 pm 
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Hostrauser wrote:
Israel shells Gaza: 225 killed, 400 injured

As much as I rail against the U.S. government, I don't think there has ever been a government in the western world that has been so callous towards innocent life as the Israelis. Every Israeli life that gets taken in a terrorist attack is paid back a hundredfold against the Palestinians (innocent and guilty alike). This goes far beyond self-defense, these people are monsters. I have no sympathy for Israel.


Well we can all go see and speak to these monsters anytime we want to in most shopping malls selling dead sea salts/soaps at Kiosks. They are the same as those of us who march in drum corps as an FYI, which is a far cry from the real monsters who hung Colonel Higgins in Lebanon in the early 1980s and put his hanging body on television for his wife and all of us, including me, to see.

On the other hand, Al-Quaida firmly agrees with you. Of course, if you wanted to buddy up with Al-Quaida they would take you hostage and/or worse.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:14 pm 
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rysa4 wrote:
Not really. There is no moral equivalency between a democracy based in morality and terrorist organizations dedicated to violence and destruction. These articles try to establish a moral equivalency that is groundless and non existent.

Sorry, I think that's a load of crap. Morality only exists in the action, not the source. A heinous action coming from a freely-elected democracy is no more "moral" than a heinous action coming from a loose band of terrorists.

Terrorists killing innocent civilians is immoral, regardless of motive.
An organized democracy killing innocent civilians is immoral, regardless of motive.

Muslims killing Jews is immoral, Jews killing Muslims is immoral.

To suggest otherwise is ludicrous.


rysa4 wrote:
Moreover, the actual original partition in Palestine mentioned above included present day Jordan. If you look at the pre-1948 map, Jews had already bought almost all of the land that became Israel in 1948 and most of the Jews living in Israel at the time of 1948 were not Holocaust survivors that magically appeared in present day Israel.

Most folks have no clue on this so I thought I'd throw it in.

Excellent. Can I throw you some clues, since we're so eager to throw clues?

The UN Partition of 1947 had nothing at all to do with present day Jordan (which became an independent nation in its own right the year prior). The original UN Partition of Palestine gave 56% of the territory to the Jews (32% of the population) and 44% of the territory to the Arabs (68% of the population). Gee, no wonder the Arab nations found this terribly unfair. They protested the partition plan, and in December of 1947 violence broke out.

Thus, the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.

Israel dominated. By the end of the war, the 32% Jewish population controlled 98% of Palestine, forcing the 68% Arab population into the remaining 2% (primarily Gaza, which the Egyptian Army held, and the West Bank, which was occupied by Jordan).

No opinion here, just facts. Spoils of war or no, this was the source of the modern Arab-Israeli conflict that rages to this day: 68% of the population forced onto 2% of the prior territory.


rysa4 wrote:
Hostrauser wrote:
The Jews, I find are very, very selfish. They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as D[isplaced] P[ersons] as long as the Jews get special treatment. Yet when they have power, physical, financial, or political, neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the underdog. Put an underdog on top and it makes no difference whether his name is Russian, Jewish, Negro, Management, Labor, Mormon, or Baptist he goes haywire. I've found very, very few who remember their past condition when prosperity comes.
-- Harry Truman, from his private diary (1947)


I'm curious as to why this was posted after an introduction regarding the current situation in the middle east. Moderator is this your personal belief about Jews(including Jews who are Americans living in the United States) and how is this related to the middle east conflict?

No, it was Harry Truman's personal opinion, that's why I labeled it as such.

As for why it was posted...


rysa4 wrote:
Well we can all go see and speak to these monsters anytime we want to in most shopping malls selling dead sea salts/soaps at Kiosks. They are the same as those of us who march in drum corps as an FYI, which is a far cry from the real monsters who hung Colonel Higgins in Lebanon in the early 1980s and put his hanging body on television for his wife and all of us, including me, to see.

The prevailing public opinion, at least in this country, is that Israel can do no wrong. I have to wonder if there isn't a tradition of western guilt over the Holocaust, so that we let Israel get away with actions we'd challenge any other country on the planet over (explain how Israel's over-reaction in Gaza is any different than Russia's over-reaction in Georgia, and if your mind is so simple you can't get past "Georgia is a sovereign nation with more rights," I pity you).

Too many people view ANY condemnation of Israel as an excuse of the actions of Hamas and others? Why is that, I wonder? Is their moral viewpoint so skewed they think there can only be one guilty party in any crime?

As Harry Truman was driving at (if you read all four huge sentences), is that the oppressed so very often turn into the oppressors the moment they have any power. Monsters are monsters, whether they are Christian or Muslim, American, Israeli, Iraqi, or German. But people, for whatever reason, tend to ignore the atrocities committed by their friends and/or allies.

rysa4 wrote:
On the other hand, Al-Quaida firmly agrees with you. Of course, if you wanted to buddy up with Al-Quaida they would take you hostage and/or worse.

Of course, if the U.S. government even THINKS I'm a terrorist, they can arrest me without proof, strip me of all my rights, hold me without legal counsel, detain me indefinitely without charging me, torture me for information...

So, uh, what's the difference?

Monsters are monsters. It doesn't become any more "right" or "moral" just because America (or Israel) does it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:03 am 
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Hostrauser wrote:
rysa4 wrote:
Not really. There is no moral equivalency between a democracy based in morality and terrorist organizations dedicated to violence and destruction. These articles try to establish a moral equivalency that is groundless and non existent.

Sorry, I think that's a load of crap. Morality only exists in the action, not the source. A heinous action coming from a freely-elected democracy is no more "moral" than a heinous action coming from a loose band of terrorists.

Terrorists killing innocent civilians is immoral, regardless of motive.
An organized democracy killing innocent civilians is immoral, regardless of motive.

Muslims killing Jews is immoral, Jews killing Muslims is immoral.

To suggest otherwise is ludicrous.


rysa4 wrote:
Moreover, the actual original partition in Palestine mentioned above included present day Jordan. If you look at the pre-1948 map, Jews had already bought almost all of the land that became Israel in 1948 and most of the Jews living in Israel at the time of 1948 were not Holocaust survivors that magically appeared in present day Israel.

Most folks have no clue on this so I thought I'd throw it in.

Excellent. Can I throw you some clues, since we're so eager to throw clues?

The UN Partition of 1947 had nothing at all to do with present day Jordan (which became an independent nation in its own right the year prior). The original UN Partition of Palestine gave 56% of the territory to the Jews (32% of the population) and 44% of the territory to the Arabs (68% of the population). Gee, no wonder the Arab nations found this terribly unfair. They protested the partition plan, and in December of 1947 violence broke out.

Thus, the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.

Israel dominated. By the end of the war, the 32% Jewish population controlled 98% of Palestine, forcing the 68% Arab population into the remaining 2% (primarily Gaza, which the Egyptian Army held, and the West Bank, which was occupied by Jordan).

No opinion here, just facts. Spoils of war or no, this was the source of the modern Arab-Israeli conflict that rages to this day: 68% of the population forced onto 2% of the prior territory.


rysa4 wrote:
Hostrauser wrote:
The Jews, I find are very, very selfish. They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as D[isplaced] P[ersons] as long as the Jews get special treatment. Yet when they have power, physical, financial, or political, neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the underdog. Put an underdog on top and it makes no difference whether his name is Russian, Jewish, Negro, Management, Labor, Mormon, or Baptist he goes haywire. I've found very, very few who remember their past condition when prosperity comes.
-- Harry Truman, from his private diary (1947)


I'm curious as to why this was posted after an introduction regarding the current situation in the middle east. Moderator is this your personal belief about Jews(including Jews who are Americans living in the United States) and how is this related to the middle east conflict?

No, it was Harry Truman's personal opinion, that's why I labeled it as such.

As for why it was posted...


rysa4 wrote:
Well we can all go see and speak to these monsters anytime we want to in most shopping malls selling dead sea salts/soaps at Kiosks. They are the same as those of us who march in drum corps as an FYI, which is a far cry from the real monsters who hung Colonel Higgins in Lebanon in the early 1980s and put his hanging body on television for his wife and all of us, including me, to see.

The prevailing public opinion, at least in this country, is that Israel can do no wrong. I have to wonder if there isn't a tradition of western guilt over the Holocaust, so that we let Israel get away with actions we'd challenge any other country on the planet over (explain how Israel's over-reaction in Gaza is any different than Russia's over-reaction in Georgia, and if your mind is so simple you can't get past "Georgia is a sovereign nation with more rights," I pity you).

Too many people view ANY condemnation of Israel as an excuse of the actions of Hamas and others? Why is that, I wonder? Is their moral viewpoint so skewed they think there can only be one guilty party in any crime?

As Harry Truman was driving at (if you read all four huge sentences), is that the oppressed so very often turn into the oppressors the moment they have any power. Monsters are monsters, whether they are Christian or Muslim, American, Israeli, Iraqi, or German. But people, for whatever reason, tend to ignore the atrocities committed by their friends and/or allies.

rysa4 wrote:
On the other hand, Al-Quaida firmly agrees with you. Of course, if you wanted to buddy up with Al-Quaida they would take you hostage and/or worse.

Of course, if the U.S. government even THINKS I'm a terrorist, they can arrest me without proof, strip me of all my rights, hold me without legal counsel, detain me indefinitely without charging me, torture me for information...

So, uh, what's the difference?

Monsters are monsters. It doesn't become any more "right" or "moral" just because America (or Israel) does it.


Well, I can see we have a lot of issues to clear up for you. International Law and the United Nations clearly outline what I have plainly laid out in my posts. You are stating clearly that there is moral equivalence between a terrorist shooting off a rocket and killing a child and the responsive defense of killing said terrorists. You are beyond wrong. You can try and squirm out of it by twisting words but thats what you are defending.

If you look back before 1947 you will find that Palestine included present day Jordan. Thats why most of the Jordanians are Palestinians by descent. Do ya think a huge number of Palestinians were massacred and left uninhabitable swampland and were forced in bigger territory?

The issue of morality is not one of state or nationhood but of circumstance. Terrorism and terrorists are absolutely not morally equivalent to democratic nations or peoples.

Your quick movement to Muslim vs Jew reveals bizarre ignorance. Two of the Israeli soldiers killed were arabs. Israeli arabs who are most likely muslims. The most successful division for Israel in the 2006 Lebanon war was an Israeli arab unit made up of muslims. You are trying to take a terrorist vs democratic nation situation and turn it into some sort of religious conflict, which this is clearly not. Many Arabs are siding with Israel in this conflict.

You see, my friend, there is a moral sphere around us, you acknowledge this when you say that killing is wrong, you just aren't fascile in its use or thinking. Terrorists who spend their days thinking up new ways to kill and destroy and act on this violate that sphere and that opens them up to legitimate action. That's why wars can actually be "just" in my opnion, and unfortunately, as in this case, necessary.

Finally, your placing of an anti-semitic quote after a post about picking sides in a middle east conflict does need to be called on the mat as such. And yes I did read the whole thing, as I did all of your posts; unfortunately a familiar refrain typical for the anti-semitic hatred that often leads down the road to some of the violence which you seem to so dearly oppose. Its drippingly obvious, sad,,,, and printed out.


By the way, have you ever been to Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, eastern Jerusalem? Do you have any arab or Israeli friends? Goota tell ya, for all of the venom, I don't think you have any familiarity in the least with the reality of the people involved. I could go on but I'll wait for the next round of your responses first.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:14 am 
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Hostrauser wrote:
rysa4 wrote:
Not really. There is no moral equivalency between a democracy based in morality and terrorist organizations dedicated to violence and destruction. These articles try to establish a moral equivalency that is groundless and non existent.

Sorry, I think that's a load of crap. Morality only exists in the action, not the source. A heinous action coming from a freely-elected democracy is no more "moral" than a heinous action coming from a loose band of terrorists.

Terrorists killing innocent civilians is immoral, regardless of motive.
An organized democracy killing innocent civilians is immoral, regardless of motive.

Muslims killing Jews is immoral, Jews killing Muslims is immoral.

To suggest otherwise is ludicrous.
.



By the way, you are now morally equating terrorist organizations such as Al Quaida. Is this what you mean? That our country and Al Quaida are morally equivalent. Yes or no?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:29 am 
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Hostrauser wrote:
rysa4 wrote:


rysa4 wrote:
Moreover, the actual original partition in Palestine mentioned above included present day Jordan. If you look at the pre-1948 map, Jews had already bought almost all of the land that became Israel in 1948 and most of the Jews living in Israel at the time of 1948 were not Holocaust survivors that magically appeared in present day Israel.

Most folks have no clue on this so I thought I'd throw it in.

Excellent. Can I throw you some clues, since we're so eager to throw clues?

The UN Partition of 1947 had nothing at all to do with present day Jordan (which became an independent nation in its own right the year prior). The original UN Partition of Palestine gave 56% of the territory to the Jews (32% of the population) and 44% of the territory to the Arabs (68% of the population). Gee, no wonder the Arab nations found this terribly unfair. They protested the partition plan, and in December of 1947 violence broke out.

Thus, the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.

Israel dominated. By the end of the war, the 32% Jewish population controlled 98% of Palestine, forcing the 68% Arab population into the remaining 2% (primarily Gaza, which the Egyptian Army held, and the West Bank, which was occupied by Jordan).

No opinion here, just facts. Spoils of war or no, this was the source of the modern Arab-Israeli conflict that rages to this day: 68% of the population forced onto 2% of the prior territory.



2%? Gaza and the West Bank make up a much larger percentage of 1948 Israel than 2%. Also, I am again telling you that Jews had bought most of the land that compromised 1948 Israel prior to the UN creating Israel.

Moreover, historical Palestine included the territory of modern day Jordan. Why do you think the majority of Jordanians are identified as Palestinians? ( In the middle east you carry the origin of your father, which is different than here in the US, where you adopt the nationality based on country of birth).

Please explain why and how the majority of Jordanians are Palestinians?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:46 am 
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Hostrauser wrote:
rysa4 wrote:


rysa4 wrote:
Moreover, the actual original partition in Palestine mentioned above included present day Jordan. If you look at the pre-1948 map, Jews had already bought almost all of the land that became Israel in 1948 and most of the Jews living in Israel at the time of 1948 were not Holocaust survivors that magically appeared in present day Israel.

Most folks have no clue on this so I thought I'd throw it in.

Excellent. Can I throw you some clues, since we're so eager to throw clues?

The UN Partition of 1947 had nothing at all to do with present day Jordan (which became an independent nation in its own right the year prior). The original UN Partition of Palestine gave 56% of the territory to the Jews (32% of the population) and 44% of the territory to the Arabs (68% of the population). Gee, no wonder the Arab nations found this terribly unfair. They protested the partition plan, and in December of 1947 violence broke out.


No opinion here, just facts.

.


I have included a link to Palestine as it existed in 1916 under French and British rule.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... esmap.html

For the record, the moderator has stated that he is just stating facts and not opinions. Well moderator, your facts are clearly wrong and conflict in the middle east predates 1948 by quite a bit.

In addition, whether by biblical reference or land ownership in 1947, Jews live in places that belong to them in the current state of Israel. It is not simply a spoil of war issue by any means. Jews owned a great deal of that land prior to 1948 and very little was given to them.

Moderator, the fundamental dictum you are preaching ( and thats what it is), typically seen in anti-semitic drivel, is that Jews were given land because of the Holocaust and Arabs were massacred and kicked out, and this is the source of the modern day conflict.

The truth is far different. Egypt and Jordan have treaties and embassies in Israel and vice versa. They were the main countries that attacked Israel in 1948.

The real truth is an alignment of terrorism among certain parties vs an alignment of non terrorist nations on the other side. It crosses boundaries of religion and culture. That is the modern day and we see it all over the place.

THE CURRENT CONFLICT IS A MICROCOSM OF THIS LARGER CONFLICT; FUNDAMENTALIST-TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS AND COUNTRIES VERSUS NO-TERRORIST SPONSORING NATIONS AND GROUPS.

Thats why we have to get this one right. And yes, my moderator friend, you are part of the we and not the them whether you like it or not!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:06 am 
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No, I think you're both wrong. I think we need to keep our noses out of another country's business. I don't wish them anything bad but I don't care if they kill each other. Let God sort them out, or not. Still, it's none of our business. We have people being raped; robbed; & murdered right here in the U.S.. Just listen to a police scanner in our large cities. We have plenty enough to worry about here without having to look for it..................Bill


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