rysa4 wrote:Not really. There is no moral equivalency between a democracy based in morality and terrorist organizations dedicated to violence and destruction. These articles try to establish a moral equivalency that is groundless and non existent.
Sorry, I think that's a load of crap. Morality only exists in the action, not the source. A heinous action coming from a freely-elected democracy is no more "moral" than a heinous action coming from a loose band of terrorists.
Terrorists killing innocent civilians is immoral, regardless of motive.
An organized democracy killing innocent civilians is immoral, regardless of motive.
Muslims killing Jews is immoral, Jews killing Muslims is immoral.
To suggest otherwise is ludicrous.
rysa4 wrote:Moreover, the actual original partition in Palestine mentioned above included present day Jordan. If you look at the pre-1948 map, Jews had already bought almost all of the land that became Israel in 1948 and most of the Jews living in Israel at the time of 1948 were not Holocaust survivors that magically appeared in present day Israel.
Most folks have no clue on this so I thought I'd throw it in.
Excellent. Can I throw you some clues, since we're so eager to throw clues?
The UN Partition of 1947 had nothing at all to do with present day Jordan (which became an independent nation in its own right the year prior). The original UN Partition of Palestine gave 56% of the territory to the Jews (32% of the population) and 44% of the territory to the Arabs (68% of the population). Gee, no wonder the Arab nations found this terribly unfair. They protested the partition plan, and in December of 1947 violence broke out.
Thus, the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.
Israel dominated. By the end of the war, the 32% Jewish population controlled 98%
of Palestine, forcing the 68% Arab population into the remaining 2% (primarily Gaza, which the Egyptian Army held, and the West Bank, which was occupied by Jordan).
No opinion here, just facts. Spoils of war or no, this was the source of the modern Arab-Israeli conflict that rages to this day: 68% of the population forced onto 2% of the prior territory.
Hostrauser wrote:The Jews, I find are very, very selfish. They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as D[isplaced] P[ersons] as long as the Jews get special treatment. Yet when they have power, physical, financial, or political, neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the underdog. Put an underdog on top and it makes no difference whether his name is Russian, Jewish, Negro, Management, Labor, Mormon, or Baptist he goes haywire. I've found very, very few who remember their past condition when prosperity comes.
-- Harry Truman, from his private diary (1947)
I'm curious as to why this was posted after an introduction regarding the current situation in the middle east. Moderator is this your personal belief about Jews(including Jews who are Americans living in the United States) and how is this related to the middle east conflict?
No, it was Harry Truman's personal opinion, that's why I labeled it as such.
As for why it was posted...
rysa4 wrote:Well we can all go see and speak to these monsters anytime we want to in most shopping malls selling dead sea salts/soaps at Kiosks. They are the same as those of us who march in drum corps as an FYI, which is a far cry from the real monsters who hung Colonel Higgins in Lebanon in the early 1980s and put his hanging body on television for his wife and all of us, including me, to see.
The prevailing public opinion, at least in this country, is that Israel can do no wrong. I have to wonder if there isn't a tradition of western guilt over the Holocaust, so that we let Israel get away with actions we'd challenge any other country on the planet over (explain how Israel's over-reaction in Gaza is any different than Russia's over-reaction in Georgia, and if your mind is so simple you can't get past "Georgia is a sovereign nation with more rights," I pity you).
Too many people view ANY condemnation of Israel as an excuse of the actions of Hamas and others? Why is that, I wonder? Is their moral viewpoint so skewed they think there can only be one guilty party in any crime?
As Harry Truman was driving at (if you read all four huge sentences), is that the oppressed so very often turn into the oppressors the moment they have any power. Monsters are monsters, whether they are Christian or Muslim, American, Israeli, Iraqi, or German. But people, for whatever reason, tend to ignore the atrocities committed by their friends and/or allies.
rysa4 wrote:On the other hand, Al-Quaida firmly agrees with you. Of course, if you wanted to buddy up with Al-Quaida they would take you hostage and/or worse.
Of course, if the U.S. government even THINKS I'm a terrorist, they can arrest me without proof, strip me of all my rights, hold me without legal counsel, detain me indefinitely without charging me, torture me for information...
So, uh, what's the difference?
Monsters are monsters. It doesn't become any more "right" or "moral" just because America (or Israel) does it.
"I hate mankind, for I think myself one of the best of them, and I know how bad I am."
-- Joseph Baretti