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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:46 am 
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Mike wrote:
WE ARE SPARTACI wrote:
C'mon Mike. In a private setting, a church, a union hall, your living room, you can discuss whatever you want and try and persuade others to act on your ideals. It is far different to go to a place of business based on the owner's personal political views and to block the entrance and intimidate customers from entering just to get your pound of flesh and to do him harm. These customers are not part of your sphere of influence; people who willingly attend your church or union meeting or whatever.


You make it sound like they are reasoning and discussing things in a rational manner to persuade their group to do their bidding. If you are a believer in the things that the church stands for...using the threat of excommunication of a church member would be a FAR worse consequence than standing in a picket line, so IMO that IS cooercion at it's worst.


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These actions by the anti Prop 8 activists here were not designed to influence a future vote or to sway public opinion on a social matter, or even to protest illegal treatment of workers. No, these protests are designed to hurt one man and his place of business, as well as to intimidate the public from supporting certain political movements in the future. They have shown they will go after lists of donors and do their best to inflict financial harm. This is the First Amendment run amok. In fact they are doing their best to squash the First Amendment rights of others.


Hmm....how about priests who refuse to let politicians take the sacraments because they do not vote as the church desires?

Mike


Whether you like it or not, churches have beliefs. Following what the bible commands us to do, within the church setting mind you does not equal to the bullying tactics that have been documented in relation to prop 8. The ironic thing is the other side of the issue always pretends to be all about tolerance and they are generally anything but.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:48 am 
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Again Mike, the point is the audience. I am not defending the internal practices of any church in particular, but there is a difference between what is said internally to willing participants (in this case, a congregation) vs. bullying the general public who are not even involved.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:12 pm 
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LAMystreaux wrote:

Whether you like it or not, churches have beliefs. Following what the bible commands us to do, within the church setting mind you does not equal to the bullying tactics that have been documented in relation to prop 8.


Well, a person elected to serve ALL of the people in his or her geographic area has to do just that. Most seem to realize that it is not their place to impose THEIR religious views on the rest of the population, so IMO it is the worst sort of arm-twisting to threaten those people with excommunication...or not permit them to participate in the rites of their religions, because they choose to let people not of their faith have their own opinions and viewpoints on the topics of the day.


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The ironic thing is the other side of the issue always pretends to be all about tolerance and they are generally anything but.


Of greater irony is those who talk about Peace and "Love thy Brother" and then threaten those who do not blindly bend to their will with these sorts of punishments.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:15 pm 
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WE ARE SPARTACI wrote:
Again Mike, the point is the audience. I am not defending the internal practices of any church in particular, but there is a difference between what is said internally to willing participants (in this case, a congregation) vs. bullying the general public who are not even involved.



I am not saying I support any coercion at all...and that includes those you are talking about.

I fail to see how one is all that different from the other, is my point. They both are lousy behaviors.

Mike


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:50 pm 
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Mike wrote:
LAMystreaux wrote:

Whether you like it or not, churches have beliefs. Following what the bible commands us to do, within the church setting mind you does not equal to the bullying tactics that have been documented in relation to prop 8.


Well, a person elected to serve ALL of the people in his or her geographic area has to do just that. Most seem to realize that it is not their place to impose THEIR religious views on the rest of the population, so IMO it is the worst sort of arm-twisting to threaten those people with excommunication...or not permit them to participate in the rites of their religions, because they choose to let people not of their faith have their own opinions and viewpoints on the topics of the day.


Quote:
The ironic thing is the other side of the issue always pretends to be all about tolerance and they are generally anything but.


Of greater irony is those who talk about Peace and "Love thy Brother" and then threaten those who do not blindly bend to their will with these sorts of punishments.


Ok, so does this mean that someone elected from a largely protestant/catholic population is allowed to be pro-life, and those elected from a largely atheist population allowed to be pro-choice? Sorry, but we elect people, with their own ideals and moral codes. I do not think they have to check their faith at the door.

As far as "punishment", the church is commanded to act in a certain manner in certain circumstances concerning members of the faith who "go astray". If you wanted to call following these commandments punishment, then the discussion pretty much ends there with your lack of acknowledgment of where christian faith is based.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:26 pm 
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Mike wrote:
WE ARE SPARTACI wrote:
Again Mike, the point is the audience. I am not defending the internal practices of any church in particular, but there is a difference between what is said internally to willing participants (in this case, a congregation) vs. bullying the general public who are not even involved.



I am not saying I support any coercion at all...and that includes those you are talking about.

I fail to see how one is all that different from the other, is my point. They both are lousy behaviors.

Mike


As is picking one's nose...

Having a common trait does not in and of itself make actions equal.

But please have the decency to at least avoid picking in public if possible...thank you.

Failure to do so will result in your being excommunicated from this message board...YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!! :evil:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:18 am 
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Once, as a police officer in New Orleans, I was walking on a 2nd floor landing to an apartment complex, after being dispatched there on a domestic complaint. I saw a man pacing up & down with a book in one hand & a knife with a long curved balde in the other. I told him to stop & drop the knife. He turned toward me. I immediately drew my service revolver & told him stop or I'll shoot. He told me he meant me no harm, he was simply going to execute his wife. I told him he was under arrest & was going to jail. He then began to explain to me the book was the Queran & it gave him the right to execute his wife for cheating on him. I told him to take her back to Iran & do that, it's not happening here. I have no idea whether or not it was true, it made no difference to me. He went to jail that night. Even if I could read Arabic he still would have went to jail. If, in fact, the Queran did say that, I believe our laws supercede that. Certainly my sensabilities did. That is an extreme case, but I think it is on the same track..........................Bill


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:39 am 
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Blurae1 wrote:
Once, as a police officer in New Orleans, I was walking on a 2nd floor landing to an apartment complex, after being dispatched there on a domestic complaint. I saw a man pacing up & down with a book in one hand & a knife with a long curved balde in the other. I told him to stop & drop the knife. He turned toward me. I immediately drew my service revolver & told him stop or I'll shoot. He told me he meant me no harm, he was simply going to execute his wife. I told him he was under arrest & was going to jail. He then began to explain to me the book was the Queran & it gave him the right to execute his wife for cheating on him. I told him to take her back to Iran & do that, it's not happening here. I have no idea whether or not it was true, it made no difference to me. He went to jail that night. Even if I could read Arabic he still would have went to jail. If, in fact, the Queran did say that, I believe our laws supercede that. Certainly my sensabilities did. That is an extreme case, but I think it is on the same track..........................Bill

:shock:

Same track as what? Execution vs. excommunicating??? You do realize that freedom of association has been determined to be a Constitutional right under the First Amendment, while the right to commit assault with a deadly weapon, attempted murder, or murder are not protected rights, regardless of one's religious views.

Am I simply missing something here? I really don't see this example as being germane to the topic.

Oh and good job on putting that dude in jail. Although given our justice system, I doubt he was there for too long.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:56 am 
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LAMystreaux wrote:

As far as "punishment", the church is commanded to act in a certain manner in certain circumstances concerning members of the faith who "go astray". If you wanted to call following these commandments punishment, then the discussion pretty much ends there with your lack of acknowledgment of where christian faith is based.


A person may personally follow every facet of a particular religion without imposing those views on the rest of us...as the church seems to require of the politicians who choose to permit individuals to follow THEIR own hearts.

Mike


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:36 am 
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Mike wrote:
LAMystreaux wrote:

As far as "punishment", the church is commanded to act in a certain manner in certain circumstances concerning members of the faith who "go astray". If you wanted to call following these commandments punishment, then the discussion pretty much ends there with your lack of acknowledgment of where christian faith is based.


A person may personally follow every facet of a particular religion without imposing those views on the rest of us...as the church seems to require of the politicians who choose to permit individuals to follow THEIR own hearts.

Mike


No, you are wrong. If a catholic (or christian, for that matter) politician is pro-abortion, then that goes against the faith they profess and what the church teaches.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:37 am 
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Blurae1 wrote:
Once, as a police officer in New Orleans, I was walking on a 2nd floor landing to an apartment complex, after being dispatched there on a domestic complaint. I saw a man pacing up & down with a book in one hand & a knife with a long curved balde in the other. I told him to stop & drop the knife. He turned toward me. I immediately drew my service revolver & told him stop or I'll shoot. He told me he meant me no harm, he was simply going to execute his wife. I told him he was under arrest & was going to jail. He then began to explain to me the book was the Queran & it gave him the right to execute his wife for cheating on him. I told him to take her back to Iran & do that, it's not happening here. I have no idea whether or not it was true, it made no difference to me. He went to jail that night. Even if I could read Arabic he still would have went to jail. If, in fact, the Queran did say that, I believe our laws supercede that. Certainly my sensabilities did. That is an extreme case, but I think it is on the same track..........................Bill


While that is an extreme case, I can't see how it remotely relates to what you and Mike seem to be in support of.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:06 am 
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I don't know, I really don't, but following the church's teaching. How far do we go? If a person's religion says to do one thing & the law says to do something else. Who is right? That was my point. I guess the question I'm trying to pose is this. Where does one person's rights stop & another's start? I don't mean approximately, I mean exactly. I'm really not looking for a fight as the issue means very little to me. I just think that the question is one of extreme importance in today's polarized society.................Bill


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:26 am 
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No fighting here. . .good discussion from most of us here I think.

First of all, God's word teaches following the law of the land. But that does not equate to being silent and blindly following the status quo of the day and time.

Secondly, where does one person's rights end and another's begins is a good question, and one we will all have different answers to. I think the polarization comes from both sides. This notion that the christians are the intolerant ones is bogus. . .completely bogus. Watch which side has more animosity and hate for the other. Sure it comes from both sides (crazies are everywhere) but I see more of it coming from the supposed open-minded ones.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:38 pm 
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LAMystreaux wrote:
Sure it comes from both sides (crazies are everywhere) but I see more of it coming from the supposed open-minded ones.


I think it is easy to feel that way when you are on one side viewing the other...as I feel the opposite obviously. I justify this because I feel that some social conservatives are not content with just being opposed to certain things such as gay marriage or gay adoption but want to go as far as denying these rights to gay people...by actually voting to deny these rights. I in no way want to take the right of anyone to practice any religion or pray to any god. I don't agree with it, but I don't want to stop people from doing it.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:20 pm 
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chadwick wrote:
LAMystreaux wrote:
Sure it comes from both sides (crazies are everywhere) but I see more of it coming from the supposed open-minded ones.


I think it is easy to feel that way when you are on one side viewing the other...as I feel the opposite obviously. I justify this because I feel that some social conservatives are not content with just being opposed to certain things such as gay marriage or gay adoption but want to go as far as denying these rights to gay people...by actually voting to deny these rights. I in no way want to take the right of anyone to practice any religion or pray to any god. I don't agree with it, but I don't want to stop people from doing it.


IMO, a vote is not only our right, but is the most civil way we can voice our opinion. What I am speaking of is the sheer hate coming from both sides.

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