I'm telling you that it's not fair to a SIGNIFICANTLY LARGER DIVISION to be almost completely left behind while a much smaller division has almost a monopoly on finals. It's Div. II/III finals, so let's make it so. Otherwise, let's just have one big "Class A" and get rid of the divisions--a move, I think, which would be devestating to a lot of smaller corps.




The Div. II corps aren't competing with the Div. III corps, so it doesn't make sense to stick them together as if they are. They weren't knocked out of finals by a Div. III corps, they were knocked out by another Div. II corps. Punishing Division III for that is detrimental to the division as a whole.


As has been said, it's not always an issue of quality, but rather an issue of quantity (of members). And no one gets finals "handed" to them. If you think that's the case, you haven't competed for a Div. III finals spot under either system.


There are exceptions to every rule. But IN GENERAL it's extremely difficult if not virtually impossible for a small corps to do that. Biggest problem, IMO, that Div. III corps have that hold them back from getting good enough to do that: lack of consistency in members and staff. That's something Mandarins has had that's helped them quite a bit; they've kept a pretty consistent staff and member base. Other Div. III corps have problems with that, even us at points. If size doesn't matter, then let's drop the whole idea of having divisions based on size.

Yes it is fair. There are 2 different divisions that have differnet goals for the season. Putting them together at finals is like trying to score Apples and Oranges. Either the Divisions should be combined to make one or the should be completly seprate. It a Divison 3 corps scores a 79 and they make division 3 finals, and a division 2 corps scores an 85 but they don't make division 2 finals....oh well they are in different divisions!!!!!! if the division 2 corps does not want to be treated that way they should be in division 3. I think the old format was a lot better then this one at least in that format there 7 division 3 corps make finals insted of possible 3. [/quote]

ok...

64 horns vs. 25...

volume suffers... and visual impact suffers... (disadvantage 25 horns)

*** i will also bring this up... in '97 and '98... marion cadets had a FIVE person hornline... in '98 it was 2 sops one mello one bari and one contra... are you trying to tell me if they played a PERFECT show musically and visually (which they didn't)... but if they did... are you trying to tell me that they could beat the largest div II corps at finals???????????? all of the forms were (line, line, arc, line, arc)... they couldn't even make a damn BOX!!! and that is supposed to earn the GE that larger corps could produce??? not to mention musically that every time someone took a breath there would be a gap in the music and other "trivial" stuff like that... but still in those years at the DCM competition they made finals for their division and put in a good showing... but somehow... i just don't think that the judges would give them the credit (if they marched a perfect show) if they were put up against Magic.

hmm... drumline... a one person could play a lot cleaner than a 7 person snare line, right?

guard... would a guard of two people throwing 5's on rifles for the entire show win best guard?

(keep in mind i am using these examples for the II/III fnials format this year)

so... in all... quality should matter the most... but there are just some things that larger groups can accomplish MUCH easier than smaller corps... and because of that "EDGE"... there should be compensation... thus, dividing II/III corps... and giving EACH the respect that they deserve... and that means EACH getting EQUAL representation in a finals competition.

Well, whatever you guys think... lets just put it this way. There is still medals for both divisions, and Bluestars would not have been awarded silver, and Yamato would not have been awarded bronze... nor would have Revolution been awarded gold in Division 3 if the 2 divisions were to merge. The current system allows the 2 divisions to compete on their own, while at the same time giving the smaller corps a chance to compete against the larger ones.

The current blueprint in progress to change division status would allow corps to compete against each other based on strength, and not size. Still, not a bad idea, but there are always questions behind it.

The 7 / 5 difference in divisions going to semis... I really don't know why, nor do I agree. 6 / 6 would be much more fare I guess you would say.

The DM issue at finals I think should be fixed and done as they are at the focus shows.

But I also still think that a Division 3 corps (regardless of size) can accomplish the unthinkable of taking top 3 status (if not 1st) in the top 12 placing. You just have to have the staff and members who are willing to put in the time to make a show that good.

Okay, I've done enough beating... my side of the horse is pretty much flat.
huh... Oh look, the tale is still moving

1997

Highest score Mandarins Div 3
2nd East Coast Div 3
3rd Spartans Div 2
4th Patriots Div 3
5th Blue Stars Div 2


It is very possible!


Why should Division 3 corps benefit from additional finalist positions because they have corps in their class who have no competitive chance whatsoever. they are only there for the experience, at best? What do the Revolution, Blue Stars, etc have in common with the Blue Saints, Citations or Kingsmen? Nada.

Let's end this foolish debate and just have a Div 3 prelims and finals and a Division 2 prelims & finals. Since corps cannot elect to perform in Quarterfinals without moving to Div 1 it takes the onus off of having a combined finals for "top 5 status". Since Academie Musicale was the only Div 3 corps to ever move directly into Div 1 there is virtually no chance of a Div 3 corps losing out on growth plans.

The problem with comparing across years like this is that the "scene" even as recently as 97 was very different from the scene now. The judging was different and corps sizes weren't as drastically different now as they were then; it was pretty unusual to find a corps the size of Magic, or even Cap Reg in Div. II then. There were some, but not lots of them and more often then not they'd move up to Div. I pretty quickly (and, unfortunately, fold).


Well, that's what you say. If you feel that these corps are somehow being run improperly, then go do something about it. The fact remains, there are far more corps in Div. III than in Div. II, and there should at least be a semblance of proportional representation at finals.


I can see there being separate prelims and finals for each corps, but then that raises the new problem of when and where they will be, and attracting people to go to more shows than the six there already are during DCI finals week. If those problems could be solved, I think that would be a legitimate option for Div. II/III.

What are you talking about? Tar Heel had over 100 members in 97. Judging was same as it is now. As a matter of fact we saw more MidWest judges on the slates than ever before. Granted they suck as judges, but they should be more familiar with all corps on one normative, shouldn't they? Size is not a score determinant in DCM.....right? How was judging different? We have seem abberations like 95 (Pioneer, Nite Express, Les Etoiles, Oakland Crusaders) and 2002 with massive Div 2 corps, but these years are the exception. Div 2 corps tend to be between 60-80. Top Div 3 corps between 40-60.


Well if there are sooo many Div 3 corps, wouldn't they have tons of members in the stands ??? The corps who did not make the top 12 or whatever number would be chosen? Truthfully, NO. very few Div 3 corps attend Finals on Wednesday night. Div 2 finals will have a good crowd because the product on the field would be solid from top to bottom.

If you think the Blue Saints belong in the same division as Blue Stars you are sadly mistaken. Finances, management, age of members, etc. all play a part. Blue Stars, Americanos, Glory all do more shows and travel more than most of the Div 2 corps. They are very well staffed and funded. Citations had to scrape together 30 kids to hit the field for a grand total of 1 show on tour, Div 3 prelims. The bottom of Div 3 should have their own classification, a Division 4. We should take the 40 or so corps in Div 2/3 and creat 3 classifications, based on a number of criteria (membership size being only one). If you are so sure corps size is the predominant reason for on field success can you explain to Allegiance Elite, Impulse and Cap Sound (all over 80 members) why they had their collective asses handed to them by a rash of Div 3 corps?

First of all, as I've said already, the reason corps size does have an impact on scoring is because the larger a corps is, the easier it is to achieve visual and musical impact. The problem with Tarheel 97 was that while they were large, they didn't execute as well as the corps above them. Blue Stars' 25 horns were able to beat Tarheel's fifty-some and Spartans' forty-some for high brass because they were a lot better line as a whole, and this stemmed from having a line with lots of experience behind it and a good, consistent staff that had been with the corps for several years before that. As for Div. II sizes: it has been my observation that sizes in Div. II are cyclical, growing larger on average and then dropping back to the 70-80 range as the largest corps move up to Div. I, then the cycle begins again.


First of all, how do you know how many non-finalist Div. II/III corps are in the stands? Second, what does this have to do with the subject at hand?


That is an idea, but I would suggest discussing it with some Div. III directors and finding out why things work the way they do before just dismissing the system outright. I bet, for example, that if you were to discuss this with my director, he would have some good reasons why DCI hasn't instituted a "Div. IV" like the GSC (I think it's them) has (any GSC people out there able to confirm this?).

For one thing, the size difference between those corps (except for Impulse) and, say, us, isn't nearly as extreme as the size difference between us and Cap Reg or Magic (or, if they come out, Pacific Crest, just to use them as an example). For another thing, regarding Capital Sound in particular, their handicap is that they only rehearse and perform on weekends until they leave for DCI. We rehearse and perform all summer, so we're able to get better faster. As for Impulse, their GE wasn't enough to make up for their problems with execution.

NOTE: While I have had comments re: the execution levels of some corps, I'm not bagging on them or disrespecting them in any way. I still respect the organizations and regard their members as my colleagues and friends.

If you are so sure corps size is the predominant reason for on field success can you explain to Allegiance Elite, Impulse and Cap Sound (all over 80 members) why they had their collective asses handed to them by a rash of Div 3 corps?[/quote]

TD, you're ignorance is showing

ha ha ha... lets try this one...

how many people have seen blast? you all know the bald guy that is lowered on a chair? his name is ben harloff... now... he's pretty good...

let's just say that somebody made a cloning machine and we made 300 ben harloff's...

we made one corps of 135

one corps of 90

one corps of 60

and one corps of 15 ben harloff's

(i think you can tell that i am a horn player)... but anyway...

each corps would play the same music... the only thing that would differ would be drill... but even the drill was written PERFECTLY for each corps...


now my question is... who would win???

(i hope that i demonstrated with this that size will eventually win and each deserves it's own place but shoud be treated equally with the others)... the only one that loses out is the 15 ben's because you can only have so many divisions.

wait, so a corps with only soprano players? no low brass? guard? percussion?
In this case, I would think that the 135 Harloff line would be in dead last because only the other groups would have enough room to add the other sections.

90 soprano line... small guard, few drums... just not going to work.
60 soprano line... no room for low brass, and where's the excitement in that?

The 15 Harloffs (in unionization with some other cloned gods of corps) wins my bet as #1.

did i ever say SOPRANOS? he also plays other instruments... and i meant that more as in musical ability...

ok... and lets just say that even with all of those ben's... he is doing everything... proper size drumline and guard and contra's, bari's and euph's, and mello's and pit...

with however good or bad he is at those... it would remain the same that each corp would have the EXACT same talent level... but the size would still be different... and that would affect impact musically and visually.

because people tend to forget in the midst of comparing corps, they weren't all playing the same music and there are different talent levels. so there is a constant quality vs. quantity issue that will never be resolved... but... all things being equal size will matter... and there needs to be compensation for that... and trying to weed out the different ("lower quality") div. III corps even though they are 4th or 5th in their division isn't fair.

div. III get's the least respect out of the three divisions even though what they do CAN BE (not IS) 10x's more difficult than the larger corps...

marion cadets... you think that was easy for the five person hornline to play an entire show???

so why should they or anyone else lose out on finals for being 4th place when there is a 9th place corps competing?

"so why should they or anyone else lose out on finals for being 4th place when there is a 9th place corps competing"

Why should a ninth place corps lose out to a 4th or 5th place corps with a decidedly lower score?

Because they're not competing with each other. The Blue Stars weren't competing with Jersey Surf, or Patriots, or Capital Regiment; we were competing with Revo, Marion Glory, Yamato, and the other Div. III corps. As I said before: Div. II corps weren't knocked out of finals under the old system by Div. III corps, they were knocked out by other Div. II corps. Having Div. III corps getting knocked out of finals by Div. II corps makes it a Div. II-focused event, and it shouldn't be. It should be at least somewhat proportionally representative of the size of the divisions.