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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:46 am 
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Blurae1 wrote:
I know there was intense dislike for eastern corps by some back in the 70's.......................Bill


Hell Bill, that same feeling also took place in the 60's.


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 Post subject: Re: The Black List
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:10 am 
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Seahawk wrote:
I marched in Blue Rock until they disbanded in the fall of 1974. I can name at least 10 to 12 members of our corps in '74 that were overage.


I was in Garfield from 70-72. I don't know if you folks had overage members in 71, but you sure LOOKED old...we were very young...on average our drum line was probably only 17 or so...that even a 20/21 year-old would have looked old to us!

We used to joke that when Blue Rock came to a show the members brought their wives and kids. :D

(It was meant in jest...we knew you were great.)


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However, what really disturbs me is that DCI continues to black list the Muchachos today. And the Bridgemen as well but not to the same extent. For example.... you will never see a video tape of the '74 or '75 Muchachos be made available for the Classic Countdown presentations, even though people swear they exist in either the DCI archives or private collections. And while the '77 Bridgemen was on the available list twice, many people stated on this board and others they had voted for that show, and could not understand why it did not place higher in the voting. Just a coincidence? Or was the voting tabulation intentionally skewed?


I believe the Bayonne 80 show made the countdown, and the alumni corps has performed twice now at DCI East, so at least on that side things seem to be better.


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IMHO the loss of the Muchachos totally changed the face of the East Coast scene, which I believe led to the rise of the Cadets in the early 80's.



I agree, and I have said that in the past. I think there was not enough top talent interested in drum corps in the North Jersey to support more than one or two high level corps. Even going back prior to DCI you saw corps rise and fall.

In the 60's, BS was top gun, with Garfield and St Lucy's a notch down. Later St Lucy's folded and Garfield rose starting in 69 for a couple of years, as BS started to decline after 1970. The Muchachos were creeping up as well, as was St Andrews.

Garfield went into decline in the early 70's, and BS folded...just as Bayonne and the Muchachos ascended to the top levels, the Muchachos first.

So...I think you are correct...the Muchachos folding helped Garfield come back later in the 70's, and Bayonne's decline helped push Garfield up in the 80's.

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: The Black List
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:14 pm 
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Seahawk wrote:
However, what really disturbs me is that DCI continues to black list the Muchachos today. And the Bridgemen as well but not to the same extent. For example.... you will never see a video tape of the '74 or '75 Muchachos be made available for the Classic Countdown presentations, even though people swear they exist in either the DCI archives or private collections.

DCI can't make available what they don't own, and I know they don't own any video footage of the Muchachos from any year.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:17 pm 
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I just spoke with Don Warren and asked him for the "facts" as best he could recall. He told me much the same as Bob Briske, the contest direct that night, had stated when I researched the "facts" several years ago.

Many corps directors were tired of the overage members in corps back then. I personally knew of quite a few overage members in corps I competed against (they were good friends of mine, but their corps weren't competitive and I felt it was their conscience, not mine). In fact, I marched with an overage member in the Cavaliers in 1973 (for a few shows until we found out and asked him to leave).

Several directors and Don Pesceone had decided that winter to make sure to clean up the overage issue. Dave Kampschorer from Blue Stars, Jim Jones from Troopers, Bill Howard from Madison, and others were determined to work with DCI to try to put an end to it.

Tom Remo joined the Cavaliers in 1975 as a tympani. He had marched with Blessed Sacrament the year or two before. He was personally aware of many overage members in the Muchachos. He identified the rototom player as being one he was dead certain could be proven overage. Don Warren and several other directors and the DCI leadership were made aware of the situation.

They decided to disqualify Muchachos due to the gross neglect of supervision (22 Muchachos were found to have had false birth certificates, all notarized by the same person in N.J. - instead of being notarized in their individual hometowns and is normally the case). Don Pesceone verified this. It wasn't because Muchachos had ONE overage member. There were probably a half dozen corps that year in that situation. It was the complete disregard for the rules by Muchachos that caused their disqualification.

Don Warren was not the one who pulled the overage member out of the line. He told me that he was not allowed to do so since he was not technically the Cavaliers corps director. He was the president. The corps director that year was Danny Heeres. Per DCI rules at the time, the corps director who was accusing had to be present with Don Pesceone when the identification was made. Thus, Don Pesceone pulled the overage member from the line with Danny Heeres standing next to him.

The member admitted he was overage. DCI had to wait until after the corps had competed in prelims in order for the disqualification to be valid. If they had pulled him before hand, they could not have disqualified the whole corps. And again, because they knew of so many overage members they wanted to punish the organization, not just the one overage member. They did NOT want to ruin the lives of the many kids in the corps who had nothing to do with this, but it was apparent to DCI that the Muchachos management was intentionally disregarding the rules.

The Cavaliers did not have a grudge against the Muchachos or any other east coast corps. It had nothing to do with the Muchachos not buying into DCI financial or touring committment. Any one of several corps would have turned in any one of several other corps if they had found the same egregious evidence of foul play. Cavaliers just happened to be the corps with the proof, and the Muchachos just happened to be the corps most abusing the rules. No conspiracy theory at work. Only good folks wanting everyone to play by the rules - and not to completely flaunt them with disrespect. IMHO, it is virtually impossible to state that the Muchachos management was unaware of the fact that they had at least several overage members. And it surely was not the first year they did it.

I stood next to the Muchachos at retreat during my ageout year at Finals in 1974. I can tell you that they had overage members. Geez . . . not even remotely discreet about it! Get serious.

The Cavaliers were also not trying to get Muchachos disqualified for any specific competitive reasons. We were only a middle of the road Finalist back then. We weren't competitive with Muchachos in the least. Maybe we would have been had they not had so many overage members, but we didn't disqualify them so we could move up one place. Who cares.

Anyway, the score sheets were definitely NEVER totaled. The judges did NOT get togehter and compare notes to come up with a total score. I personally asked Don Angelica about this before he died and he said he knew nothing of that. He was one of the top judges back then and the longtime Judges Coordinator for DCI.

After Don Pesceone met with the DCI directors with the evidence he asked them what he should do with the untabulated sheets. He was told to destroy them. He did so, without ever adding up the score.

End of story - if you choose to believe the people who were actually involved in a position of knowledge and authority. Maybe it is time for the management team of the Muchachos to discuss publicly if they knew of their many overage members. They are as much to blame as any of the overage kids in the corps. I find it hard to believe they did not know.

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Spirit of 76 (Sr) 75
Chicago Connection (Sr) 77
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Chicago Royal Airs (Alum) 03-04
Classic Cavaliers 06-07
Cavalier Anniversary Corps 08


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:59 am 
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:cry: Who cares? :?: :?:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:28 am 
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Question: Read nothing into this other than what it states. This forum is not the only place I've heard this comment. I've heard it for the past 30 years, any time "old timers" get together. I remember the conflict it caused at the time. So here's the question. Has DCI ever fully related the facts publicly as you have stated them? If so, when? I've never read either DCI's or Mr. Warren's side of this event before today. Thank you..........Bill


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:38 am 
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Mr. Warren discusses it in his new book which will be out in November. I doubt, however, that there will be any extraordinary detail.

As for DCI telling their side of the story, I don't know what the forum would be for that, either back then, or now. I suspect they gave a low down to all the directors. Don't think they had a press conference or anything like that. They didn't have websites back then. I don't recall if any of the drum corps papers (Drum Corps World, etc.) interviewed anyone.

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Cavaliers 70-74/staff 75-76
Spirit of 76 (Sr) 75
Chicago Connection (Sr) 77
Spirit of Atl/JSU mgr 78-80/Bd Member 01-03
Chicago Royal Airs (Alum) 03-04
Classic Cavaliers 06-07
Cavalier Anniversary Corps 08


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:05 pm 
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Your list of corps marched in Paul tells us that the Cavies alumni corps might be marching at finals next year. Care to elaborate?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:09 pm 
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Yes, all indications are that we will be fielding a 60th anniversary corps at DCI pre-lims next year, much like Madison and Anaheim have done the last two years.

We will also be performing two or three other times prior to that, most likely at the Cavaliers show in Michigan City, IN and in Naperville (that show date is still to be decided, so we may be doing an exhibition in Naperville the weekend prior to DCI week). The uniform will be closer to the satin blouses and shakos of the 60s and 70s than it is to the current uniform. But we're still playing with all sorts of fun ideas.

The music will be the "classics" from the 50s through the mid-90s. Full drill, etc. It'll be both "old-time" and "modern" drum corps.

Lots of interest and excitement from the alums. We've been planning this for well over a year now, in conjunction with several other initiatives surrounding the 60th anniversary - and the 80th birthday of our founder and still president, Don Warren.

P.S. So far we have 16 snares committed - and that's just us guys from the 50s, 60s and 70s. How many we'll have when the 80s, 90s, and 00s guys start signing up could be amazing! : )

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Cavaliers 70-74/staff 75-76
Spirit of 76 (Sr) 75
Chicago Connection (Sr) 77
Spirit of Atl/JSU mgr 78-80/Bd Member 01-03
Chicago Royal Airs (Alum) 03-04
Classic Cavaliers 06-07
Cavalier Anniversary Corps 08


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:26 pm 
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Paul Milano wrote:
P.S. So far we have 16 snares committed - and that's just us guys from the 50s, 60s and 70s. How many we'll have when the 80s, 90s, and 00s guys start signing up could be amazing! : )


Geez, with 16 snares from the 50s through the 70s alone, you may need two drum lines - one old school and one new school!

I cannot imagine the tough decisions the alumni are making about what to play. There are SO MANY cool tunes by the Cavies played during the years, something good is going to be omitted out of sheer necessity.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:14 pm 
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Jim Anello wrote:
Paul Milano wrote:
P.S. So far we have 16 snares committed - and that's just us guys from the 50s, 60s and 70s. How many we'll have when the 80s, 90s, and 00s guys start signing up could be amazing! : )


Geez, with 16 snares from the 50s through the 70s alone, you may need two drum lines - one old school and one new school!

I cannot imagine the tough decisions the alumni are making about what to play. There are SO MANY cool tunes by the Cavies played during the years, something good is going to be omitted out of sheer necessity.


It's been interesting figuring all this stuff out. We've pretty much determined which songs we'll be playing, but I'll let the Alumni Corps Director, Chris Hartowicz, announce that when he is ready. Many of the staff are already on board, equipment is pretty much secured or we know where we're going to be borrowing it from. Uniform design is being fine-tuned. Camp weekend dates have been set for Rosemont (Dec.) Houston (Feb.), and Indy (April).

As for two drum lines, yes, we will probably have half the line playing restored 15" Mylar drums (we've already got 18 TDRs and Dynasonics!) and the other half on 14" Yamaha Kevlar drums. Once you get past 15 or 16 snares nothing's gonna' be clean anyway! :lol:

And, we've got some very clever ways to march a full drill (including "modern" high-speed drill) while not leaving anyone out of the formation who may think they are "too old" to do all that "fast stuff." You'll enjoy what we've come up with.

Sectional rehearsals are beginning all over the country starting this month.

Madison and Kingsmen have both been kind in giving us some guidance along the way. It'll be hard to top what they've just done these past couple years, not to mention Bridgemen, SCV, Royal Airs, 27th (anyone else?). Of course, it's NOT a competition, but those "jerks" have set the bar soooooo high! :evil:

Should be fun!

P.S. Let me add that any undertaking like this is not without controversy. Which songs, staff, cost, modern vs. old school, drill vs. standstill, white bucks vs. black shoes, G vs. Bflat, Mylar vs. Kevlar, shakos vs. aussies, and on and on and on. It tests the "bonds" of the brotherhood from time to time, but once our founder, Don Warren said "I want to see this happen and I want to see it done right," all the "discussion" ended! 8-)

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Crusaders 62-64
Vikings 67-69
Cavaliers 70-74/staff 75-76
Spirit of 76 (Sr) 75
Chicago Connection (Sr) 77
Spirit of Atl/JSU mgr 78-80/Bd Member 01-03
Chicago Royal Airs (Alum) 03-04
Classic Cavaliers 06-07
Cavalier Anniversary Corps 08


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 Post subject: muchachos disqualification
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:28 am 
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Hi
Just came across this thread. I was the one who wrote the chapter for the History of Drum Corps. orignally the chapter had far more details on the DQ but this was editted down in consultation with Steve Vickers. I personally interviewed by phone the DCI leadership and many others to get more relevant background. Iron Lung's description of what happened that day is basically correct, although I do not know who pulled the drummer out of line. There is a lot more to the backstory.
The long and short of it is that the Muchachos in 1974 marched several overage members. DCI apparently warned the Muchachos director in March of 1975 that they were going to crackdown. There was a longstanding bias against eastcoast drum corps, and against the Muchachos and its director in particular. The Muchachos corps director chose to thumb his nose at DCI and allowed several overage members to march in 1975 (maybe 3?). Multiple other DCI corps had overage members marching in 1975, several other crops pulled their overage members, but were allowed to continue. Given DCI's dislike of the Muchachos director, they decided to make an example of the Muchachos and the hammer came down. It didn't have to be this way.


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 Post subject: Re: Summer or 75 muchachos disqualifaction
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:15 pm 
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Well, enderwiggins1 story sounds a little different than the one told by ex-Cavi Paul's doesn't it?


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 Post subject: Re: Summer or 75 muchachos disqualifaction
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:31 pm 
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Yo, tooner here :roll: .
I marched BD in '82, playing lead sop.
Jack Mehan was an amazing brass caoch and guru, and one time he talked about that year. He said he admaired the Muchachos horn line because they were "Free blowing". One time, while smoking with him, he said, yah, the soloist was overage, her regretted it now....


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 Post subject: Re: Summer or 75 muchachos disqualifaction
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:24 pm 
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In this era, a 27th percussionist named Big Wally was "challenged" by a rival corps director. DCI asked for Wally's drivers license and the drumline laughed. Someone asked if they'd settle for his library card because Big Walley wasn't old enough to have a drivers license.


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