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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:09 am 
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Brian Tolzmann wrote:
According to the account written (by two members of the Muchachos) in volume two of the Drum Corps World History Book, it was indeed a member of the drumline that was "called out" in '75.


Do you want me to ask someone who was there? We have a member of the contra line in the Kingsmen Alumni Corps that marched in the 75 Muchachos. I'll ask him about today at rehearsal kamp.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:21 am 
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Bandmaster wrote:
Brian Tolzmann wrote:
According to the account written (by two members of the Muchachos) in volume two of the Drum Corps World History Book, it was indeed a member of the drumline that was "called out" in '75.


Do you want me to ask someone who was there? We have a member of the contra line in the Kingsmen Alumni Corps that marched in the 75 Muchachos. I'll ask him about today at rehearsal kamp.


Please do - and ask for the person's name, at least the first name.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:06 am 
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on July 19 1974 he would have been 21 that's 21 days before DCI 1974 so on July 19 1975 he turned 22 years old 21 days before DCI 1975 so that would have made him 1year and 3weeks too old in 1975. I believe that my math is correct. In the writer's own words he said the he was only 3weeks (21days) too old.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:51 pm 
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TONY429 wrote:
on July 19 1974 he would have been 21 that's 21 days before DCI 1974 so on July 19 1975 he turned 22 years old 21 days before DCI 1975 so that would have made him 1year and 3weeks too old in 1975. I believe that my math is correct. In the writer's own words he said the he was only 3weeks (21days) too old.


Well, my math says he (whoever it was) was of age up till July 19 1975, cause one could march while still being 21, just not while being 22. So on July 20 1975, he was one day too old, and so on and so on. Up to those dreadful 3 weeks. 8-)

The sad thing is, in today's DCI he could have marched while turning 22 on July 19. And the corps would have never been DQ'd.

It will be interesting to hear what Dave finds out!!

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:26 pm 
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sir it not intention to lie about this subject.... what happened 32 years ago was something i kept to myself. but recently someone from my corp told me about this wesite and that my name was being mentioned. so i looked it up and could not believe my eyes, also after reading some 'stories about my real age i figures it was time to talk a little, there is so much more to this story then just getting caught. i have been out of the corp circuit and did not realize that this subject comes up ever year. so for being the one to bring it up i am sorry. i am goimg to buy the book where i am talked about.. would have been nice to have been interviewed. mike ps enough said on this subject......


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:21 pm 
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Two may have been caught but there were more than two overage members with them that year. I don't believe a word he says either as being the person caught.

Before 75, overage was rampant in DC. I remember people in St. Lucy's and Sac that were a good 4-5 years over the age limit


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:27 am 
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bumba_58 wrote:
Two may have been caught but there were more than two overage members with them that year. I don't believe a word he says either as being the person caught.

Before 75, overage was rampant in DC. I remember people in St. Lucy's and Sac that were a good 4-5 years over the age limit


We (Garfield) were very young, as compared to some of the area corps in my marching era (70-72). We used to joke about the members of BS and Blue Rock bringing their spouses and kids to shows. :D

Mike


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:30 pm 
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Jim Anello wrote:
Bandmaster wrote:
Brian Tolzmann wrote:
According to the account written (by two members of the Muchachos) in volume two of the Drum Corps World History Book, it was indeed a member of the drumline that was "called out" in '75.


Do you want me to ask someone who was there? We have a member of the contra line in the Kingsmen Alumni Corps that marched in the 75 Muchachos. I'll ask him about today at rehearsal kamp.


Please do - and ask for the person's name, at least the first name.


OK, my source has the nickname of "Iron Lung" and was a contra for the Muchachos from 1973 to 1978. He said the drummer's first name was Wade and was a long time member of the Muchachos. A DCI official was waiting for him on the sidelines as they exited the field and took his wallet with his ID and walked away. Members of the corps have always wondered why he had his wallet and ID in his uniform during the performance. I was told more of the story but will hold it back for now.

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 Post subject: Muchachos
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:58 am 
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Hi Dave,
The guy's name was Mike Wade. He was the Roto Tom player (I hated that thing.) Almost everything that was said about the person is in fact correct. (The guy might be Wade himself) He was a few weeks overage based upon DCI rules of the time.
We had people in the corps who I don't think even knew who their parents were much less had birth certificates.
The real issue was this, as we left Franklin Field from prelims to go into the tunnel to return to the buses, the contra line was the end of the corps with the drumline, so I saw this. Don Warren, director of the Cavaliers, came directly up to Wade and pulled him out of formation. We didn't know what was happening at first so we kept marching out of the stadium. Wade, in his infinite wisdom kept his wallet in his cummerbund. Warren asked for his ID and Wade, stupidly gave it to him. Warren left the tunnel and headed towards Briske at the scorer’s table with Wade's ID. By the time we had been able to inform MAC (John MacAulffe, our director) what happened, he was already at the busses.
Over the years I have only had three questions;
1. When has there ever been the right of another corps director to approach a member of a corps, pull them from rank and interrogate them.
2. Wade was stupid, but suppose he was not. What if he didn't have his ID on him, what would have happened then? Would a warrant be required? I don't know what information he gave MAC as to his birth date. Would everything be different?
3. Why at prelims? The reason Warren knew that Wade was overage was because he was from Lodi which is right next to Garfield. He knew a guy named Romeo who marched in Garfield and went to Chicago to march with the Cavaliers. Romeo knew Wade was going to be overage at the beginning of the season.
On the field at prelims,Warren, Bonfiglio (Then head of the executive committee) and Pescione met and Pescione took the sheets from Briske if we understand it correctly prior to them ever being tabulated. We were told as a corps several hours later that we were disqualified.
All of the garbage that has come out over the years means nothing. This is what actually happened. I know many people who have come up to me over the years and said they were overage that year.
The problem is that it doesn't make any difference. If DCI was truly interested in cleaning up the overage issue in 1975, we would have been approached right when Wade went overage, and not by Warren, but by Pescione directly to MAC.
No…DCI did not want the Muchachos to have anything to do with the management of the organization. Why? Because we were not buying into the major financial commitment that was required to perform summer touring to the extent that DCI was proposing. Muchachos showed that you could have your cake and eat it too, which was exactly what DCI did not want. A winning program, without huge financial expenditures.
We were not allowed by local statute to have Bingo. We shared facilities with the Caballeros and with two corps in a small blue collar town it was very hard to raise capital to support a large financial commitment and MAC believed that the forced commitment of the dozens of Eastern corps to follow DCI's grandiose plans would put these corps under, which of course it did.
MAC was never part of the inner circle of the DCI management and had made quite a few enemies of those who basically ran their little show. This was payback, capricious and arbitrary. If DCI was truly concerned, there would have been a full investigation across all corps earlier in the season and it would have involved the paid management of DCI, not individual directors going after corps members from corps other than their own.
So yes there is no denying that Muchachos marched overage and if you look at the law is the law, then yes we were guilty. But think its 32 years later and people are still talking about it. Wouldn't you, had you been there, as a fan would have wanted to see the Muchachos and Madison head to head? The people who DCI should be most concerned about, with the exception of corps members are the fans.
By doing what DCI has done over the years is to dramatically increase the complexity of the shows and talent level of the participants, but something has been lost and I believe a lot of people agree.
I believe that "Old School" was shown as a viable entertainment choice by the Kingsmen last Friday night. When was the last time you spontaneously stood up in the middle of a show for a Div. 1 corps today and found yourself doing that on a regular basis? The last time for me was a section of SCV’s show a few years ago and a few times in the ‘90’s. I love the incredible talent that these kids show, but I think we have lost some of the entertainment value that makes Drum Corps what it had always been. I hope a few people saw in the Kingsmen something that may open their eyes to the possibilities of maybe going a little backwards to move forward.

Steve "Ironlung" Horne

Hawthorne Muchachos
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 Post subject: The Black List
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:42 pm 
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I fully agree that the whole thing boils down to a grudge between DCI and the Muchachos. Overage members were rampant throughout many corps in the early to mid 70's. I marched in Blue Rock until they disbanded in the fall of 1974. I can name at least 10 to 12 members of our corps in '74 that were overage. Similar situations existed in other corps as well. We finished in 16th place, so the overage people obviously did not give us any kind of advantage over our competition. If DCI truly wanted to clamp down on overage it could have been handled much better than the way it transpired. Blue Rock, being one of the founding members of DCI, later had to deal with a grudge of a different kind from DCI's top officials because they did not attend Finals in '72. One of several of the founding members that chose not to attend that first championship. There were always rumurs about bad blood between Ted Sciarra and Don Pesceone going back as far as '70 or '71.

However, what really disturbs me is that DCI continues to black list the Muchachos today. And the Bridgemen as well but not to the same extent. For example.... you will never see a video tape of the '74 or '75 Muchachos be made available for the Classic Countdown presentations, even though people swear they exist in either the DCI archives or private collections. And while the '77 Bridgemen was on the available list twice, many people stated on this board and others they had voted for that show, and could not understand why it did not place higher in the voting. Just a coincidence? Or was the voting tabulation intentionally skewed?

Also, let's not forget there were two other corps who faced an overage issue. One was DQ'd (Crossmen '75 or '76) and one was not (SCV - forget the actual year). Both corps continued to compete in later years with no apparent repercussions. Bridgemen at least managed to survive a few years after their DQ. On the other hand, IMHO the loss of the Muchachos totally changed the face of the East Coast scene, which I believe led to the rise of the Cadets in the early 80's.

Given the history of these incidents, one has to wonder why it seems only Eastern corps were targeted. I am sure there were overage members in Midwestern or California corps too. There is a lot of room for speculation and what-if's.

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 Post subject: Re: The Black List
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:54 pm 
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Seahawk wrote:
Also, let's not forget there were two other corps who faced an overage issue. One was DQ'd (Crossmen '75 or '76) and one was not (SCV - forget the actual year).


Probably in 89 when they had at least two, possibly three blanks in finals. Some members from England were overage. This SCV case has been kicked around before. By having it come out before finals may have helped SCV. The other discussion has been why those blanks didn't affect scoring more.


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 Post subject: Re: The Black List
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:20 pm 
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Seahawk wrote:
you will never see a video tape of the '74 or '75 Muchachos be made available for the Classic Countdown presentations, even though people swear they exist in either the DCI archives or private collections.


As a matter of fact the Muchachos recently had a reunion, and a previously "unknown" video from '75 DCI was shown to the surprise of all in attendance. It was written about in a recent article in Drum Corps World.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:22 pm 
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I won't comment on the level of the shows, but I would like to make a few statments as to "what's missing" in DCI. Evidently "Ironlung" is about the same age as me. As I recall from those days, not everyone could read music. A lot of corps played a lot of tunes for several years.
Corps back then did not have music as their primary goal, it was the kids, any kid. Ironlung's statment "We had people in the corps who I don't think even knew who their parents were much less had birth certificates", is the tip off. The job of keeping kids off the street was more important than intonation, as well it should be.

DCI has lost touch with any of that. They are more concerned with being "Marching Music's Major League" than with the welfare of kids. That, in my opinion, is what's missing..............Bill


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:09 am 
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I find it interesting how corps directors seemed to be going after the "East Coast Corps."
1975...Muchachos, 1976...Crossmen, 1977....Bridgemen. All in in the Philly/NJ area!

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:25 am 
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I know there was intense dislike for eastern corps by some back in the 70's.......................Bill


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