The Drum Corps Discussion Group
Presented by The Sound Machine Drum Corps Scores Archive

Links to Other Sites: 

* FAQ   * Search   * Login   * Register 
It is currently Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:59 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 42 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:21 am 
Offline
All Star
All Star
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2002 12:40 pm
Posts: 1030
Dave B wrote:
Okay, that being the case, drop the corps total to 100-110, or whatever one less bus can fit safely. The point was "one or two less busses," not a specific number of kids.



This is from you...that generated my response: "...however many can be accomodated by three buses". With newer and larger busses, you can fit 150 on 3 busses. Looking to cut the number is a very different argument. Not saying it's an invalid one...it's just a different one than has been discussed here.

Quote:
First, 150 - 128/116 = 22/34. Second, why are the Top 12 all carrying around a minimum of two tractor-trailors, plus a motor home, plus 4-5 busses, plus any number of other support vehicles if they don't need them, Mike? If they don't NEED them, then they should drop what they don't need, or else not whine about fuel costs. If they DO need them, they're probably hauling around too dad-gum much stuff.


Again, the post I responded to spoke to ADDING equipment requiring more...because of the added members...not discussing the current number of trucks being used.

Again, it might be a good discussion to have, but it's not the one I responded to.


Quote:
Okay, for example, do you think a percussion caption head, a snare tech, a tenor tech, a bass tech, two pit techs, and a cymbal tech might be a TAD excessive for a <40 person section? Just asking. I'm NOT saying everyone does it this way, but again, this is the way of most of the Top12.


OK... but again, this is the current scenario, not impacted by adding a few more players.

Are there too many instructors? What is "too many?" The top-12 are the top-12 for a number of reasons....one being the ability to have sets fo eyes and ears to finetune the performance levels. It's not my call to say they are excessive. I like the idea of having specialists available

Quote:
There's only one way to start a new powerhouse corps: start up a "nobody" and make people want to march there. One way you do that is by making it harder to hold out for a spot in a "premier" corps, and make potential members say "Okay, can I REALLY count on being one of two rook-outs to make this 43-time champion two years from now, or should I maybe get my experience in now with this local group now while I can?"


But that is just not the way it happens in 2008. Kids have to spend a lot of time and $$$ to march, so they want the opportunity to be as good as it can be.

Potential members just do not think that way today, hence the failures of some of the Open class corps due to a lack of members.

Quote:
One of the reasons that the small corps aren't "feeders" to the larger ones anymore is because they don't exist, and DCI needs to address this failing in any way it can. If they do not, then eventually they will be left with 7-10 200-member marching units, three of which are actually any good. It might take another decade or two, but it's inevitable if the current system doesn't shift.


It's a chicken/egg question in some ways. Some of the local small corps have failed due to a lack of members...not all, but some of them.

Even many of the corps that exist today seem to be looking for members, from reading posts on DCP.

I don't see that the old model of small corps feeding big ones really has an impact today. Most of the kids in the World Class corps come directly from scholastic programs.

Mike


Mike


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:18 pm 
Offline
All Star
All Star
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 1:35 am
Posts: 576
Location: FOB Warhorse, Iraq
Mike wrote:
This is from you...that generated my response: "...however many can be accomodated by three buses".
Yes, but my statement didn't end there:
Dave B wrote:
...however many can be accomodated by three buses, instead of four or five. (emphasis added)
The point was that with these self-same newer busses, one might try to fit the entire membership and staff on one or two fewer busses than what they're currently running. I apologize for not making that point more clearly.
Mike wrote:
Again, the post I responded to spoke to ADDING equipment requiring more...because of the added members...not discussing the current number of trucks being used.

Again, it might be a good discussion to have, but it's not the one I responded to.

I'll buy that, but only if you can tell me honestly that you think the amount of equipment used by these corps didn't grow measurably with the addition of only seven more members (128 to 135), and that it won't grow even moreso now that we're adding TWICE that number (i.e., 15) to go from 135 to 150. 15 more kids may not sound like much, until you realize that this year's increase represents 10% of the total corps membership of 150. (Ask any business whether a 10% increase in sales/profits/costs/etc. is significant in any way. :D) In addition, one has to recognize that the average member weighs 150+ pounds each, and by the time you figure their baggage, the added food you're carrying to feed them for (x)days, the weight of their uniforms, equipment, and props... in short by the time you're done, you've added 2-3 TONS of cargo the corps is carrying around. Busses and trucks, however new, are nevertheless finite in capacity: the more butts and baggage the corps haul, the more vehicles the corps need to haul them, pure and simple. This not only increases fuel costs, it increases maintenance costs. Prodigiously.

Of course, if the maximum membership remains at 150 (and continues to expand in the future, as I expect), then there will be no choice for the individual corps but to try to fill that quota in order to remain competitive on the field. At that point, start-up corps, to even have a prayer, will themselves have to field larger numbers just to be taken seriously. Do you see how this cycle is self-defeating? If, as you say, "potential members do not think this way today," if they "spend a lot of time and $$$ to march" in an effort to get the best possible experience, then how do you suppose future new corps will convince MORE potential members to break that cycle, instead of fewer?

Quote:
Are there too many instructors? What is "too many?" The top-12 are the top-12 for a number of reasons....one being the ability to have sets of eyes and ears to fine tune the performance levels. It's not my call to say they are excessive. I like the idea of having specialists available.

From a performer's/spectator's standpoint I agree with you: more technicians usually means better, more focused instruction, and thus a higher performance level from the same start-point. Higher performance levels are a good thing. Most good things come with a price tag, though.

So let's compare the Top12 hornlines of my day - membership of 128 overall = avg. hornline of 54 - 64 horns - versus the hornlines we can expect this year - 150 overall = expected/announced hornlines of 64 - 76 horns. (I use the hornline because it has the largest ratio of members to instructors, usually.) As you can see, the increase is significant; roughly two thirds of the new members joining can be expected to end up in the hornline. By way of comparison, the whole Crossmen soprano section numbered only 16-18 horns when I marched, the mellos only 10-12. Now, sure, the new number equates to only about a 2-3 person gain in each section of the line, but if 3-4 brass techs THEN made sense, and 4-5 brass techs last year made sense, then adding 1-2 more to cope with 10 or so more players this year makes sense, too, right? And what about the visual staff, specifically those responsible for monitoring these brass players as they march? To get the same level of coverage/instruction, you've gotta add 1-2 more there, too, right?

The bottom line is that we've grown the membership of the top-class DCI corps once already on the argument that "we can handle it on the vehicles we have." The actual result was the addition of more and more equipment and personnel, which then required the addition of more vehicles. All of these additions added to the corps' operating costs significantly. Now we're going to add twice as many new members as we added before. Based on recent history, the only assumption/prediction possible is that we're going to see still more equipment/personnel added, which is going to mean MORE of a fleet of vehicles, which means even higher corps costs. Sure, some of that can be absorbed by the addition of the new members' tuition, but there's not a World-Class corps out there now that covers their costs through membership fees alone, and the more members they add, the bigger that short-fall becomes.
Quote:
Even many of the corps that exist today seem to be looking for members, from reading posts on DCP... Most of the kids in the World Class corps come directly from scholastic programs.

All the more reason to find ways to re-structure DCI such that those kids are as POSITIVELY motivated towards new/smaller corps as possible. Doing so would mean that:
:arrow: there wouldn't be an insurmountable number of people to convince, against their better judgement (which you accurately pointed out), to march in a newer/smaller corps.
:arrow: these newer/smaller corps would have (admittedly potential, not guaranteed) access to more raw talent, since there would be fewer slots open at "the top."
:arrow: paradoxically, the premier corps could maintain their level of excellence more easily, not less, since there would be fewer holes to fill each year, and there would be more previously drum-corps-trained members out there to fill them.
:arrow: ALL corps will have lower fuel/operating costs (to bring it back to the start point of the discussion), since they'll be carrying around fewer people and less equipment. The shortfall between membership fees and costs will drop, or at least quit growing, so corps will 1)be financially easier to start up, and 2)be less likely to fold due to financial concerns from year to year as a result.

All that having been said, Mike, I suspect that we're both right, in our own ways. (Everyone watch, now: this is where Mike says: "What!? All that and you don't even think your way is RIGHT?? :hmrd: " ^_^) I expect that the "right" way forward is completely different, not only from the way things ARE going, but also from what I've put forth here. Though I DO think my way would work. :twisted: Stay tuned for a post in the general discussions area that addresses our differences in a slightly different way.

_________________
SPC Dave Ballard
Crossmen '87 - ' 89


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:35 am 
Offline
All Star
All Star
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2002 12:40 pm
Posts: 1030
Dave B wrote:
I'll buy that, but only if you can tell me honestly that you think the amount of equipment used by these corps didn't grow measurably with the addition of only seven more members (128 to 135), and that it won't grow even moreso now that we're adding TWICE that number (i.e., 15) to go from 135 to 150. 15 more kids may not sound like much, until you realize that this year's increase represents 10% of the total corps membership of 150. (Ask any business whether a 10% increase in sales/profits/costs/etc. is significant in any way. :D) In addition, one has to recognize that the average member weighs 150+ pounds each, and by the time you figure their baggage, the added food you're carrying to feed them for (x)days, the weight of their uniforms, equipment, and props... in short by the time you're done, you've added 2-3 TONS of cargo the corps is carrying around. Busses and trucks, however new, are nevertheless finite in capacity: the more butts and baggage the corps haul, the more vehicles the corps need to haul them, pure and simple. This not only increases fuel costs, it increases maintenance costs. Prodigiously.


I don't think corps will be adding more trucks to haul the added stuff for the 15 extra members. Just MHO...they'll make due with what they have, esp with fuel prices as they are.

Quote:
Of course, if the maximum membership remains at 150 (and continues to expand in the future, as I expect), then there will be no choice for the individual corps but to try to fill that quota in order to remain competitive on the field. At that point, start-up corps, to even have a prayer, will themselves have to field larger numbers just to be taken seriously. Do you see how this cycle is self-defeating? If, as you say, "potential members do not think this way today," if they "spend a lot of time and $$$ to march" in an effort to get the best possible experience, then how do you suppose future new corps will convince MORE potential members to break that cycle, instead of fewer?


I don't see the answer as being one of penalizing the successful corps that attract members. I try and look at this from the POV of the potential customer...i.e. the new member. Not from the POV of the corps, or those of us who KNOW what a great thing it would be to march at the Open level.

I think the 150 is pretty much the max, given the size of busses, until WW are added and then they will probably expand by either one bus or two...50 or 100. That day is a long way away, IMO.

Quote:
From a performer's/spectator's standpoint I agree with you: more technicians usually means better, more focused instruction, and thus a higher performance level from the same start-point. Higher performance levels are a good thing. Most good things come with a price tag, though.


You also have to look at this from the POV that not every instructor spends every day with the corps all summer...they come and go as their schedule permits. Lower level techs may do less of this, but at the higher end I know instructors have other obligations during the season.


Quote:
So let's compare the Top12 hornlines of my day - membership of 128 overall = avg. hornline of 54 - 64 horns - versus the hornlines we can expect this year - 150 overall = expected/announced hornlines of 64 - 76 horns. (I use the hornline because it has the largest ratio of members to instructors, usually.) As you can see, the increase is significant; roughly two thirds of the new members joining can be expected to end up in the hornline. By way of comparison, the whole Crossmen soprano section numbered only 16-18 horns when I marched, the mellos only 10-12. Now, sure, the new number equates to only about a 2-3 person gain in each section of the line, but if 3-4 brass techs THEN made sense, and 4-5 brass techs last year made sense, then adding 1-2 more to cope with 10 or so more players this year makes sense, too, right? And what about the visual staff, specifically those responsible for monitoring these brass players as they march? To get the same level of coverage/instruction, you've gotta add 1-2 more there, too, right?


If there were 10-12 mello, and now there qre 12-15...why would that require another instructor. IMO the additions to the hornline are not going to add brass staff...ditto percussion. The exception there is if a corps added back a plates section and might want to bring in a tech for them.

Quote:
The bottom line is that we've grown the membership of the top-class DCI corps once already on the argument that "we can handle it on the vehicles we have." The actual result was the addition of more and more equipment and personnel, which then required the addition of more vehicles.


Hence our disagreement. IMO the additions will be covered by the existing rolling stock...esp in today's economy.

Quote:
All the more reason to find ways to re-structure DCI such that those kids are as POSITIVELY motivated towards new/smaller corps as possible.


There is no doubt that the Open class experience can be a great one. You know that...I know that...all of us who experienced drum corps know it. However, I look at this from the POV of a potential member...how do THEY know it would be worth the time and $$$?

It's really an age-old issue, not even tied to DCI. I marched in what was then a class 'B' corps in 68/69, and that is the level I taught and judged at in the mid/late 70's to 1980 or so. Those corps were always struggling to attract bodies, even when the competitive HS band scene in my area was not even a blip on the radar.

In today's world...it's even a larger problem. To march in an Open corps that is not 100% touring, the members primarily have to live in a commutable distance, otherwise where do the kids live? It defeats the purpose if large portions of the membership have to have full-time housing all summer long...and have to spend $$$ on travelling costs to get to the Open class camps. It means that a kid from, say, NJ, who misses the cut at, say, Regiment, would have to know about the opportunities in the NJ area, such as the Raiders, Surf, and Spirit of Newark. It makes less sense for them to know about the Open class non-touring corps in the Rockford area.

I have always thought that at winter camps there should be an opportunity at the START of the camp for an Open class director to come in and make a generic "hey here we are" presentation to the potential members of the World class corps. Play some video...pass out literature on ALL of the open class corps available around the country, so that the kid cut who travelled 1500 miles knows about the Open corps near his/her home. Don't do it at the END of camp...the kids cut are already very disappointed...hardly the proper time to mention "Plan B" to them.

Quote:
All that having been said, Mike, I suspect that we're both right, in our own ways. (Everyone watch, now: this is where Mike says: "What!? All that and you don't even think your way is RIGHT?? :hmrd: " ^_^) I expect that the "right" way forward is completely different, not only from the way things ARE going, but also from what I've put forth here. Though I DO think my way would work. :twisted: Stay tuned for a post in the general discussions area that addresses our differences in a slightly different way.


"What!? All that and you don't even think your way is RIGHT??" :D

I don't pretend to know the best way to do any of this...I just have MHO on things....or if there even IS a "best way". The main thing to me is that whatever is done HAS to be done through the eyes of the potential member...what makes THEM tick...not just what we know is good for them.

Mike


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:18 pm 
Offline
Veteran
Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 11:22 am
Posts: 179
Location: Fond du Lac, WI
OK, just for argument's sake.....

Back when I was still marching (30 years ago :oops: ) this weekend would have probably been the third show weekend. The first weekend in June was usually a Whitewater show, generally for the CSJA or DCM judging slates to work out the kinks. Most of the corps didn't have the whole show completed--the closer would most likely be done at a standstill as the corps hadn't learned the drill yet. And I'm sure the tickets were only a few bucks. As a matter of fact, I believe our first show in '82 wound up with side #1 and side #2 a bar apart at the end of the opener. :?

Was that better? You tell me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:27 am 
Offline
Support Staff
Support Staff
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 4:13 am
Posts: 4803
Location: Virginia
uncle z wrote:
OK, just for argument's sake.....

Back when I was still marching (30 years ago :oops: ) this weekend would have probably been the third show weekend. The first weekend in June was usually a Whitewater show, generally for the CSJA or DCM judging slates to work out the kinks. Most of the corps didn't have the whole show completed--the closer would most likely be done at a standstill as the corps hadn't learned the drill yet. And I'm sure the tickets were only a few bucks. As a matter of fact, I believe our first show in '82 wound up with side #1 and side #2 a bar apart at the end of the opener. :?

Was that better? You tell me.


Hey z, long time no see! :lol:
Yes, by this time 30+ years ago we would have had several shows under our belts. Were they perfect? No! Heck our first show out in '81 we were beaten by the Holy Family Defenders! :oops: Our show was no where complete....had many holes in the program as far as guard work and only 1/2 of the drill was completed.
When we started tour (about now) they scrapped the end of Bustling, made it shorter and re-wrote the entire second half of the show.
I know it was valuable for us to get a read early in the season so that changes could be made. Although, major changes seemed to happen right through to the last week of Allentown. They knew that would be our last major show with judges who likely would be on the championships panel.
The reason why there aren't so many early shows is there aren't any localized circuits like DCM, DCE, VFW, CYO and so on. Those shows gave us some exposure to the audiences and got us ready for the DCI circuit.

_________________
Malibu
Crossmen Alumni

"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

Image


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:54 pm 
Offline
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:30 pm
Posts: 84
What a fantastic day here in Maine!!! We are all on the "Weekender"!!

Just left our mooring and we are headed out to see what we may have in our "traps", hopefully we will bring back a load of Maine Lobsters, and we will boil them on the the dock, with some corn and steamers, we don't get many nights like this down here in Maine.

We have "Loud City" blasting in the background an enjoying some of the great tunes that have been played during the years.

We were thinking of traveling down to West Haven, Conn. tonight for the show, but we thought of the long drive home. Not worth it.

Just imagine years ago, we would be finished with the VFW, and heading into the World Open, and then probably the American Legion Nationals.

I just reviewed the "Interstatesmen" and their history, and I remember being at that show in Somerville, Mass. on a very cool September 30 evening where they beat the Skyliners in 1962!!

Also, that evening was the last performance of the Cambridge Cabs, because they disbanded during the winter with questions as to where the money disappeared!!!

What a shame they certainly made it interesting comp. against SKEK, H.P. Crusaders, and Braintree Warriors.

Just imagine a contest on the last Sat. in September!!!

Just pulled up the first trap, and we have 4 lobsters, probably about l l/2 lbs each. On to the next trap!!!

Looks like a good night of eating and drinking!!!

Bring on the NFL!!!!!!!


Groucho


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Blast from the past
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:19 pm 
Offline
Support Staff
Support Staff
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2002 9:40 pm
Posts: 1729
Location: Northern Colorado
Just saw your post in the Blast From the Past.

I remember the days of late summer (and early summer) shows. Never participated in them myself. as I was secluded in the Rocky Mountains, but do remember reading of them in DCW. Hard to realize the season is over so soon now.

Hey, I saw your post ended with "bring on the NFL." Made me wonder if you are a football fan. If so, I'd like to invite you to our NFL Football Pool Game we play here. Its lots of fun.

CHeck it out here; http://www.soundmachine.org/dci/forum/v ... php?t=8269

Hope you'll check it out and give it a try. Pre-Season is just for kicks, practice and what not. The real competition starts with the Regular Season (which is just around the corner now).

_________________
Marianne
BK Rifle 68-74
Trooper Sis: 1984
Trooper Aunt: 2005


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:58 pm 
Offline
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:30 pm
Posts: 84
Now that Labor Day has arrived, you can tell there is a chill in the air!!

We intend to spend the weekend on "Weekender", as long as the T.S.
Hannah stays away, otherwise it will be down to our local watering hole, and watch NCAA Football, and then the "PATS" on sunday.

We were asking the question the other night how many corps will survive the year? I say at least two go under, deep six!!!!

I will be going out tomorrow to check the traps and see how many lobsters, we were able to gather up for the weekend!!!

Groucho


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:49 pm 
Offline
Rookie
Rookie

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:30 pm
Posts: 84
The season was over in 7 minutes when Brady got hit.

I have faith, but I think it will be a long season, hopefully we can make ghe playoffs.

Our plans for this weekend is to go out on Saturday, and wee what we have been able to get in the traps, and then on Sunday we are all going to sit back and relax and watch the first game.

We just recently purchased a LCD 52" Sumsung for the "Weekender" in the past two weeks, and we have cable hook up, so we will be able to sit back and watch DCI "DVD'S", and then as the sun sets in the west, we will put on the fleece, and watch the PATS destroy the JETS.

Just imagine, this weekend would have been the Eastern Mass. Finals, and next weekend would have been the Mayflower Finals.

Where have all the flowers gone?

Just purchased a few CD's from Fleetwood for the weekend!!!

They include SKEK, BAC, BEV, CHICAGO, etc.

Let's go PATS!!!!!


Groucho


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Oh Yea!!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:06 pm 
Offline
New Recruit
New Recruit

Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:59 pm
Posts: 1
Location: Ma.
Just imagine on a Sat. night going to show that included SKEK, BAC, St. Mary's, Charlestown, St. Mary's, Beverly, Camb Cabs, Braintree Warriors,
St. Rose, I. C., Gatesmen with an exhibition by the "Lt. Norman Prince"!!!

I was thinking the same thing when I read your post....I remember during the "good old days," when there was a circuit show every weekend! I also remember that there were strong rivalries. I have to admit that the kids today without any doubt out played, and out marched us....but it was much more fun back in the glory years........just my opinion :)

_________________
1967 1968 St. Mary's Cardinals
1969 Beverly Cardinals


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Oh Yea!!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:04 am 
Offline
Support Staff
Support Staff
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 4:13 am
Posts: 4803
Location: Virginia
pbelfi wrote:
Just imagine on a Sat. night going to show that included SKEK, BAC, St. Mary's, Charlestown, St. Mary's, Beverly, Camb Cabs, Braintree Warriors,
St. Rose, I. C., Gatesmen with an exhibition by the "Lt. Norman Prince"!!!

I was thinking the same thing when I read your post....I remember during the "good old days," when there was a circuit show every weekend! I also remember that there were strong rivalries. I have to admit that the kids today without any doubt out played, and out marched us....but it was much more fun back in the glory years........just my opinion :)


How can one say "it was much more fun back in the glory years"? I'm sure the kids today experience just as much fun as you or I or anyone else did.....back in the day. :shades:

_________________
Malibu
Crossmen Alumni

"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

Image


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Oh Yea!!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:37 am 
Offline
Veteran
Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 6:51 pm
Posts: 235
Location: Arkansas
Malibu wrote:
pbelfi wrote:
Just imagine on a Sat. night going to show that included SKEK, BAC, St. Mary's, Charlestown, St. Mary's, Beverly, Camb Cabs, Braintree Warriors,
St. Rose, I. C., Gatesmen with an exhibition by the "Lt. Norman Prince"!!!

I was thinking the same thing when I read your post....I remember during the "good old days," when there was a circuit show every weekend! I also remember that there were strong rivalries. I have to admit that the kids today without any doubt out played, and out marched us....but it was much more fun back in the glory years........just my opinion :)


How can one say "it was much more fun back in the glory years"? I'm sure the kids today experience just as much fun as you or I or anyone else did.....back in the day. :shades:


It's all relative in the eyes of the beholder. I am sure that many who marched in the 40s and 50s threw up at what we were doing in the 70s. And, some of today's kids will be put off by what will be done in the future. Regardless, it is still an excellent activity for those able to do it.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 42 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group