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 Post subject: Not that much booing...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2002 3:32 pm 
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Not sure if this discussion is about last night or are we on this track again about the whole booing is appropriate or inappropriate.

About last night.....
There really wasn't a lot of booing. I would say there was a large vacuum from people gasping and then some pretty vocal "awwwww". Then of course thunderous applause. I think what caught some people off guard was the spread in score. When they announced Cascades score people cheered but quite a few had some confused looks and some people around me were mouthing "2 points?" Very polite and appropriate crowd response.

Boohooing.....
Ah, forget it. Boooooooooooooooo let's get off this topic!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2002 5:42 pm 
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Poor SCV, they too had to feel the deep wound caused by the Drum Corp spectator's booing since they beat scouts too....

I bet the Cavie kids from the 2001 championship show are still suffering from the booing they heard after the Scout score was given last year for 11th place........

I know, lets stamp out booing the poor judges all together, we can also stop screaming out loud when we like a show or drill move....



I was awaiting a response like this. All I can say is that you can put whatever spin (or sarcasm) you want on this debate. It does not change the fact that booing is just plain and simple poor sportsmanship. Noone said every corps ahead of them is effected, but I would bet a lot of money that kids in the Cascades this year and Crown last year, and so on from other years are negatively effected by the display. The booing is not just about the judges. . .that is a copout.

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 Post subject: To Boo or not to boo, that is the question
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 12:01 am 
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I was awaiting a response like this. All I can say is that you can put whatever spin (or sarcasm) you want on this debate. It does not change the fact that booing is just plain and simple poor sportsmanship. Noone said every corps ahead of them is effected, but I would bet a lot of money that kids in the Cascades this year and Crown last year, and so on from other years are negatively effected by the display. The booing is not just about the judges. . .that is a copout. - Mike Bodine

It seemed to me he was saying "winning is the best revenge" and that corps members are not hot house flowers whose fragile psyches must be insulated at all costs. And why is your spin the correct one? The only reason, as usual, you have responded here is that any discussion involving Madison invariably draws you out, always on the other side of the fence.

Perhaps you should ask yourself why is it that in show after show, in all parts of the country, for a number of years now, fans are disagreeing with Madison's placement. What is it about Madison with its dirty feet and its weak guard and non cutting edge drill design that makes Madison the fan favorite? Now I've already read your take on this many times. The fans are stupid/unenlightened/rude. I don't know what kind of message youre imparting about competition to your kids in your capacity as Assistant High School Band Director down in Texas but in most of America, competition is good. People like seeing teams/units/what-have-you striving and working their butts off to achieve excellence and provide entertainment and they react to that. There is a connection Madison makes withs its audiences which is unlike practically any other in DCI. There is a deep emotional appreciation the fans have for what Madison does year in and year out, in good times and in bad, and that is put fans first. So if fans are reacting in this way which you deem inappropriate, perhaps you should find a way to deal with it, cause it was here before you came on the scene and will doubtless continue for some time as long as Madison keeps its commitment to entertain. Personally I'd take higher scores in place of a bit of fan appreciation, but if Madison can't get one, it might as well get the other.

If more drum corps got the kind of wild appreciation Madison does, (and more used to not so long ago) then maybe there would be so many people out there trying to figure out whats wrong with DCI and drum corps. Maybe DCI would be filling up 40,000 seat venues again and PBS would actually broadcast all finalists without the obligatory hour of solicitation of donations.


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 Post subject: Its about more than the booing
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 1:18 am 
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The only reason, as usual, you have responded here is that any discussion involving Madison invariably draws you out, always on the other side of the fence.



I would hardly say that I am the only person who feels this way.


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Perhaps you should ask yourself why is it that in show after show, in all parts of the country, for a number of years now, fans are disagreeing with Madison's placement. What is it about Madison with its dirty feet and its weak guard and non cutting edge drill design that makes Madison the fan favorite?



For every fan who disagrees, there is at least another who agrees, so making it sound one-sided is not true. Also, many who enjoy the scouts are also able to admit their faults instead of blaming someone else.



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Now I've already read your take on this many times. The fans are stupid/unenlightened/rude.


Wow, I never remember saying anything remotely close to this. Yes, I think booing scores (and in essence other corps) is poor sportsmanship, but I am pretty sure the words rude, stupid, or unenlightened have never been in a post of mine. Try again.

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So if fans are reacting in this way which you deem inappropriate, perhaps you should find a way to deal with it, cause it was here before you came on the scene and will doubtless continue for some time as long as Madison keeps its commitment to entertain. Personally I'd take higher scores in place of a bit of fan appreciation, but if Madison can't get one, it might as well get the other.


What do you mean deal with it? This booing discussion comes up all the time, and every single time there are people opposed to it and those who think it is okay. Big deal. . .we disagree, we discuss, we move on.


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If more drum corps got the kind of wild appreciation Madison does, (and more used to not so long ago) then maybe there would be so many people out there trying to figure out whats wrong with DCI and drum corps. Maybe DCI would be filling up 40,000 seat venues again and PBS would actually broadcast all finalists without the obligatory hour of solicitation of donations



The problem I have is that you make it sound like Madison is the only corps that brings people to their feet. I went to 2 big shows last year, both in TX, and both with the Scouts. One show, SCV had the crowd cheering louder than anyone. . .the other show, the Cavies were the obvious favorite. This year, I bet a lot of money that when I take my band kids to the shows in Dallas that they will love the Cadets show the most simply based on reviews so far this season.

My point is, corps do not have to sell out to DCI in order to do well within the current system. Corps like Cadets, Crossmen, Phantom, and as of late Boston and Bluecoats have been scoring much higher, getting much better while still producing very entertaining shows. DCI is not the devil, and again I will say the Scouts hold their fortune in their own hands. I am all for philosophy, but I just can't see why that philosophy should keep them from competing better than they did in 2000 and in 2001. This year it remains to be seen.

I am not sitting here typing this trying to incite anger in you or get more personal jabs heaved on me. I just think the more the scouts, including their board and some of their fans continue pointing the finger at everyone but themselves, the further down they will go. . .and that will be bad for drum corps.

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 Post subject: Dan is an angry scout
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 2:53 am 
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Dan, you quoted an entire paragraph in red that was clearly a general statement about sportsmanship and how it affects others when someone is boo-ed, and then you go on to twist it into TX saying "winning is the best revenge"

...where in the hell did you get that from?! Wow, man. Talk about reading one thing and comprehending another.

You know why PBS doesn't air DCI finals like they used to? Because Bill Cook and Star of Indiana aren't around helping out with the bills.

I find it amazing that you can't admit that heckling Judges and boo-ing the scores is unsportsmanlike and disrespectful to other corps. You rant as if this were all about Madison and it's not. It's about people treating hard working Drum Corps members, their staff, and the Judges with respect.

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 Post subject: Booing = Honest Feeling
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 4:26 am 
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:roll:

I would suggest you listen to or watch videotapes of corps when the activity was dominated by military people and those trained by them. You can call military veterans "poor sports" if you like. But unlike those who are arguing that those who boo and justify the practice can't take responsibility for what they are doing, I would argue that the paying customer - whether in sports or whatever - has a right to express in whatever nonviolent way their feelings about what they are seeing and hearing.

Now, if you are so upset by booing, try to take responsibility for why audiences might feel so much distaste that they choose to express themselves by booing.

As long as this is still drum & bugle corps, as long as there are people going to shows who remember what corps shows used to be like, and as long as people continue to be disappointed by scores and certain corps' placing, there is going to be booing.

And I would suggest that those who focus more on the "poor sportsmanship" of booing instead of respecting the phenomenon as an accurate statement of opinions of what's going on out there... IMO there are a number of staffpeople who are having difficulty preparing their "teams" for honest crowd response. What's sad is that instead of feeling able of giving the paying customers what they want, all that some are doing is doing worse than booing their paying customers - they are blaming them for the shows and scoring system that elicits those boos.

I'm sorry for the people who have a difficult time handling these facts of life. Most "creators" are thankful to have an audience, particularly one that is honest enough to provide feedback. Either you care about your audience's opinions or you don't. And IMO, this whining over booing and the elitism it reveals is far worse than the collective dissatisfaction, honestly expressed, of the people who enable you through their dollars, their time and their applause - IF deserved - to continue to put on a show.

-- Catherine


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 Post subject: Re: Booing = Honest Feeling
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 7:32 am 
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I would suggest you listen to or watch videotapes of corps when the activity was dominated by military people and those trained by them. You can call military veterans "poor sports" if you like.


Noone ever said anything about military veterans. You're almost as good as Dan at twisting words.

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 Post subject: military veteran?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 11:03 am 
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I AM a military veteran, and I marched 4 years from '93-'97... with 80 pounds on my back as an Army Ranger. Let's not drag the military into this.

I can draw the line between Drum Corps and Sports. We're talking about musical and visual creations. We're talking about art. We're talking about how adults behavior can have an impact on how young people ages 21 and under (mostly teens) feel about their performances. The politics of who you think should win, or the state of DCI itself, shouldn't even factor into this.

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 Post subject: Military Vets
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 12:34 pm 
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I'm sorry you appear to be equating discussing a time in which military people were more often in the stands and teaching corps - and the standards they held themselves to - as somehow detrimental to the military. Further, in my alumni-style corps I march with people who were in the USAFA D&B NCO corps, and I know quite a number of Marines who also march corps (my brother and sister-in-law are also retired USAF, my father US Army). We currently rehearse at our American Legion post, and some of our people are also members. None of them take offense at any discussion of what they do, for they are proud of what they do.

As to the other poster, I will definitely bring the military history and values into a drum & bugle corps discussion. Where did drum & bugle corps come from, after all? Some of us define the activity with regard to military values and needs, just as some of you use sports and art analogies. You are welcome to disagree with my using military meanings and values as a way of defining what corps is. But to say "let's not talk about it" or the people who were involved and still are deeply involved with corps is unfair unless you wish to remove "sport" and "artistic" values from consideration as well.

The military veterans I speak with who are and were involved in drum & bugle corps - particularly on a day like today - are awfully proud of their connections and work. Why should the two not be talked about in connection with each other? I don't understand this - please explain.

As I was saying...

The military people who taught me - my first horn instructor was a Marine, we did junior corps camps at Fort MacArthur and El Toro Marine Base, we rehearsed at our Posts - never, to my recollection, blamed any audience for booing us. Instead, they generally were able to produce the effect in an audience that was intended. When we did well, the audience responded. When we didn't do so well, the audience let us know. We therefore learned that if anyone got booed, it was because of what we were doing or not doing.

When your life is on the line, you don't always have time to worry about what constitutes good sportsmanship - even if I agreed that booing was anything of the sort. You learn to do what works, and you don't fuss a lot about people liking or not liking you. If a corps doesn't want people to boo, it seems to me that the staff ought to do something about it rather than blaming the audience. And if there's some sort of political reason why people may boo - something any competent staff ought to be able to anticipate - they I feel they have a responsibility to explain the situation factually to their students and discuss why the decision has been made to let this happen.

Frankly, I think the upset over booing is because some people aren't happy with the depth of the dissatisfaction of fans and audiences. Since booing is something which has an effect on the illusion of positivity being crafted by marketers of the current product, some see it as a problem which they hope will go away - as opposed to dealing openly and realistically with the reasons for the booing in the first place. And frankly, I think not dealing with the root causes of the booing is both negative AND poor sportsmanship.

Talking about the poor sportsmanship of an audience is, IMO, sour grapes and a waste of time.

-- Catherine


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 Post subject: what the...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 2:12 pm 
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"'m sorry you appear to be equating discussing a time in which military people were more often in the stands and teaching corps - and the standards they held themselves to - as somehow detrimental to the military."

what the... I'm saying don't bring the military into this because you don't know jack about it, and it has nothing to do with this topic.

"When your life is on the line, you don't always have time to worry about what constitutes good sportsmanship"

Wow, hanging out at the legion makes you a seasoned combat veteran, eh? You ever jump out of an airplane with a machine gun? You ever see the enemy through rifle sights? Give me a break, leave the Military out of this. Don't talk about things you know nothing about as if you were an expert. Life is on the line... sheesh.

This is NOT a complex issue. We're talking about Music and Art. While Drum Corps may have some roots in the military, that was decades ago and has evolved quite a bit. I DO NOT understand why you still think it's ok for a group of 135 Young people aged 14-21 to work all day, every day, to put together a show for a crowd, only to have the crowd BOO! When is this EVER appropriate? NEVER!

It's like if you went to a 6th grade band concert and you booed the kids because they didn't sound very good and you didn't like the music selection... is that OK too?!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 3:12 pm 
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...I was just at the grocery store and I went on a heckling frenzy because I have no respect for people anf their efforts. I yelled BOOOOO! at everything I didn't like, expecially hard working young people.

The cashier put my ice cream in paper instead of plastic so I yelled BOO! I was like "Hey! I don't like the current state of grocery stores, so I'm going to take it out on YOU!!!!"

Then I saw a young man stacking cans of coke and I yelled "Boo! That's not the way they stack soda pop 50 years ago! and I don't like Coke! I like Pepsi! BOOO!"

--------
Is this the world we want to live in? Can't people go to a Drum Corps and enjoy every performance? Can't we applaud everyone, especially when they show dramatic improvements over the years? I'm SO SICK of people making DCI into a ranting verbal warzone. Just go to a show, be impressed with everything, even pick a favorite if you want, and go home happy.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 5:55 pm 
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-DrumJesseLA

This is highly competitive, subjectively judged, competition held in stadiums with thousands of passionate fans. When scores are annouced, how can you not expect occassional applause, cheering, booing, hissing, or other forms of support or dissatifaction with the scores or placements?

If you truly want to eliminate the booing and/or hard feelings and want everyone to "Just go to a show, be impressed with everything, even pick a favorite if you want, and go home happy.", then we may need to eliminate the judges and scores.

-Micheal Bodine
You do enter almost every discussion about the Scouts, and on the other side issue. You're clearly their most vocal opponent on the board. It's not a crime if don't like them.

-ALL
I think the good news is that this year DCI and the judges have heard us and made some adjustments. Even the Glassmen admit jokingly to not playing the most exciting or moving music, and this year it's hurting them. Don't think so? Check their Music GE scores compared to other corps. Is Madison getting credit for the musical GE they deserve? Again, check out the caption scores.

Look here: http://www.bknights.org/scores/standing ... ion=sGEmus

As of today, Madison's exciting musical production has them placed 6th in Music GE. The Glassmen are tied for 16th.

So, Madison IS getting credit for their musical GE, but it's not enough to move them up. Until I see the caption scores, I will withhold my judgement on the judging.

(BTW, this hasn't always been true in the past, so I hope this continues.)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 9:08 pm 
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David,

I don't want to speak for those you directed your comments to, but since their opinions have fallen in line with mine (they just beat me to the thread in expressing them) let me say, just because something happens doesn't make it right. No one is arguing that it's not happening or that it won't happen but that doesn't mean we should condone it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 9:11 pm 
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-Micheal Bodine
You do enter almost every discussion about the Scouts, and on the other side issue. You're clearly their most vocal opponent on the board. It's not a crime if don't like them.



David Wright:

I enter into a lot of discussions on this board, on just about every topic. . .call me opinionated, call me in love with drum corps, call me bored because I am a teacher and it is the summer. . .it really does not matter to me.

As far as the scouts are concerned, I don't dislike them or any corps for that matter, because it makes no sense to dislike a corps. I dislike or enjoy to a lesser extent certain shows by certain corps in certain years. If it makes me an opponent of the Scouts that I disliked the last couple of years, and I engage in discussion about them in their current state, then so be it.

I assumed that is what a discussion group was all about, but people tend to get bent out of shape when they are disagreed with.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2002 10:22 am 
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It is a shame that wherever Madison appears, the result is that there is booing when the scoring is announced. It doesnt matter where they go in the country, the resulting booing occurs. North, South , East, and now the West where they rarely have appeared. They are a crowd favorite, and certainly no one would be silly enough to blame them for their far reaching crowd appeal. The booing is certainly inexcuseable by fans. It is a shame. There is a definate and obvious disconnect between the audience and DCI judging . In the past couple of years, I have noticed a technical fall off in the Scouts, but they still have the ability to entertain a crowd. It is a shame that more proficient Corps, but apparently less fan friendly Corps, feel slighted and unappreciated. I don't have an answer for this booing dilemna which is an understandable frustration for many in the activity. Flat out, booing is never acceptable.


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