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 Post subject: ALL scores for 6/30 (no west coast yet).....
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:14 pm 
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Here we go (courtesy of dci.org)........first, Mankato -

Division 1

80.550 Santa Clara Vanguard
71.200 Spirit from JSU
69.700 Pacific Crest
66.950 Southwind
66.200 Madison Scouts

All age corps -

62.963 Govenaires
61.738 Chops, Inc.

DCI Kalamazoo

Division 1 -

82.150 Blue Devils
81.900 Cavaliers
80.900 Bluecoats
73.600 Glassmen
69.050 Cascades
68.200 Troopers

Division 2

57.700 Colt Cadets

Division 3

66.500 Memphis Sound

All age corps

66.363 Kilties

East Rutherford, NJ

Division 1

81.950 The Cadets
81.200 Phantom Regiment
80.350 Carolina Crown
75.750 Blue Knights
73.950 Boston Crusaders
68.650 Crossmen

Division 2

69.500 Jersey Surf

La Crosse, WI

Division 1

72.450 Blue Stars
64.200 Pioneer

Division 3

63.700 Revolution
57.100 Capital Sound
47.300 Racine Scouts

All age corps

66.368 Minnesota Brass, Inc.


Whew...............LOTS of scores tonight. SCV's score is continuing to go up nicely, GO FOR IT Pacific Crest..........WOW!! Look at the Troopers score...........their staff is DEFINITELY teaching the right things. It's going to be a INSANE battle for those 10th-17th place slots at semifinals........and there is STILL no real "front runner" for the top 7 either (tonight's spread for the top 7.........1.8 points).

So..........what do YOU think???????

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SCV alumni corps 2002
Wind symphony/orchestra director
Guangxi Arts College, Nanning, China


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:25 pm 
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Southwind finally took Madison tonight!

WOW!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:31 am 
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Is it me or does Crossmen's scores seem stagnant?
I wished judges would judge corps on what they do and stop relying on past scores as a crutch for them to rank.
If they (judges) are looking at their own scores that's different than looking at Joe Smoes scores from the previous night. :roll:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:36 am 
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Or Joe Schmoe's even... :lol:


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 Post subject: Yes, but.............
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:32 am 
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Malibu wrote:
I wished judges would judge corps on what they do and stop relying on past scores as a crutch for them to rank.
If they (judges) are looking at their own scores that's different than looking at Joe Smoes scores from the previous night. :roll:



I COMPLETELY understand what you're saying, Malibu........but it's not quite that simple.

As a "former" judge (it's a little hard for me to accept judging assignments nowadays.......the commute is a BEAR), there are several things that are important to keep in mind. First, we've just finished the third weekend of shows...........judges are still moving around a bit (especially the veteran judges) and I'm sure there were still judges this weekend that were seeing groups for the first time. Second, these judges are still rotating around on captions as well.........maybe they've already had one viewing of a corps from an upstairs (GE/ensemble) standpoint but this weekend was the FIRST time to view the corps from a downstairs standpoint. Third, sometimes you NEED to refer to a previous show as far as numbers are concerned. An example.......last weekend let's say I was judging shows all from the upstairs vantage point, but THIS weekend I am assigned to the downstairs caption. Now, if this is my FIRST viewing of corps from downstairs, I would refer to the recap of the most recent show of the groups I'm judging as far as their downstairs numbers are concerned.......simply as a REFERENCE point - that's all. This way I can be a LOT more accurate with my box placements AND proper numbers management within the boxes of each sub-caption. As a judge, my main responsibility is NOT to say "this group is better than that group"......I know that sounds kind of strange. My responsibility IS to say "based on your achievement, my evaluation is that you should be in lower box 4" - with a accurate number to reflect that evaluation. When I finally assign a number to my evaluation, I will SOMETIMES look at other numbers I've given to other groups - but usually not.

The KEY to all this (and this is where it gets kind of "sticky") - the assumption that all judges have been adequately trained and fully understand ALL of the criteria reference definitions (on the back of each judges sheet). Every judge is SUPPOSED to know WHAT a box 5 performance looks or sounds like.........the same with box 4 and so on. The truth is............most judges DO understand all this, and mostly do a GREAT job of numbers management and box placement - however some are still learning and that reflects itself in inconsistent scores and improper box placements. Never forget though..........when it's all said and done every number and box placement that is given is a judge's OPINION (a well trained opinion......but still an OPINION).

This was the BIGGEST argument against removing the tick system back in 1984..........corps were really afraid of trusting their ENTIRE score based on a judge's OPINION. However, it's also obvious that the removal of the tick system has allowed corps to be MUCH more expressive and experimental - WITHOUT the risk of losing 1/10 of a point for each mistake that is seen or heard.

I think after this weekend (or maybe next weekend) most all of the judges will have seen most all of the corps multiple times (upstairs and downstairs) - this will allow them to refer to their own past numbers (instead of someone else's) and make it easier to start raising their numbers as they see the improvements to each corps. This is actually easier to do with Division 1 corps - due to the higher level of consistency and excellence of each corps. Wild score fluctuations will continue to occur with the Div. 2/3 corps (especially the Div. 3 groups) all the way to DCI week, simply because of the much WIDER range of excellence (and consistency) that these corps display. A Div. 3 corps with 20 horns can do a flat show and it will sound like TEN horns......yet a day later they might do a GREAT show and sound like THIRTY horns.........imagine what that does for their score from show to show. It's not uncommon at all for a Div. 3 corps to see their score change as much as TEN points (or even more) from show to show!!

Man, I ALWAYS do this..........my fingers never listen to my brain when it says "enough already!!" Sorry, Malibu........I'll stop now!! :oops:

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SCV lead baritone 1979-1981
SCV alumni corps 2002
Wind symphony/orchestra director
Guangxi Arts College, Nanning, China


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:41 am 
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Yeah, I know how the system is supposed to work. In the off season, I judge in an indoor guard circuit (3rd largest in the U.S.) who is affiliated with WGI. We have the same box set up like DCI with all the box explanations on the back of the sheet.
There are some guys I've seen do like you said, refer to recaps to make sure they stay within the "numbers" so they don't look like they are out to lunch when assigning a number.
Me.....I don't refer to the recaps UNLESS it's my own! I have been around guard long enough to know what a box 5 or 4 and so on guard looks like and feel comfortable with the numbers and subcaptions that I give.
It just ticks me off when a judge doesn't do his/her job by taking the lame way out and just posting a score based on what they got the night before. Heck, why even compete if the numbers are a given?

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Malibu
Crossmen Alumni

"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

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 Post subject: So you know............
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:57 pm 
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Ah................winter guard. I also judged in the WGASC for a few years as well as being the judge coordinator for the Bakersfield winter guard circuit (just north of Los Angeles about 90 minutes) for 10 years. In the WGASC, we were trained to have a previous recap handy (Shirlee Whitcomb was my training judge).......but that might have been a unique situation due to the fact that 50-60 guards might be at the SAME show (WGASC is the largest circuit in the nation with something like 300 guards in the circuit). There were many times that even in the later part of the season (1-2 weeks before the championships) that I would be seeing a group for the FIRST time. I did not want to skew or distort their numbers........so I would refer to a previous recap to get a BETTER idea of where they had been ranking/rating. Call it a crutch, if you will.........but when you're trying to split 10ths between 60 groups (45 which would all be in HSA class) a previous recap could defintely make things a little easier!!

You ARE correct though.........this type of thing SHOULD be "discouraged", so to speak - ESPECIALLY in drum corps. I'm pretty sure DCI "frowns" upon this........but there IS one more thing to remember - THE INTERNET. We (us here at the forum) routinely look at the recaps that DCI posts on it's website......we want to know the details of how a particular group is doing. Wanna bet that the judges do this too? They're human (at least I think so) and they're ALSO curious.

Malibu, you KNOW all this already.....after all, I AM speaking to a "colleague"!! Let me ask your professional opinion on this (put your judge hat on now) - what do YOU think is REALLY going on with the Crossmen? Are the judges really relying on previous recaps TOO much? Are they just getting a slow start? Are there obvious composition or performance problems that the staff has not addressed yet?

One other thing that's a little different now (and MIGHT be contributing to some score stagnation).........no more critiques. Looking at it from the judge's standpoint, I suppose it makes the evening's job a bit less stressful (no more irate or irrational instructors to deal with). HOWEVER, I personally enjoyed them - if utilized properly the critique was a VERY effective way to enlighten a judge as to design ideas, subtle nuances, etc. (or enlighten instructors/designers as to where the real problems are) - I for one am sorry they are gone. Without this interaction/verbal intercourse between the judge and instructor, it WILL take corps longer to raise their scores because it takes the judge longer to "understand" a corps design/performance intentions. Today's shows are SO much more complex and full of nuance.........and yet the critique is gone.

Ooops, I did it again (GOD, I sound like Britney Spears now).....sorry , Malibu. Oh, one more question - what caption did (or do) you judge in the winter guard season? EA for me during the winter, and in the summer/fall (mostly fall) I'm (or more accurately I was) usually upstairs doing music ensemble or GE. Talk to you soon, Malibu - and I WOULD really be interested in your opinion regarding the Crossmen!!

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SCV lead baritone 1979-1981
SCV alumni corps 2002
Wind symphony/orchestra director
Guangxi Arts College, Nanning, China


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:30 am 
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I haven't seen Crossmen so I can't make a fair assessment. Based on what you've said about there not being critiques, that makes since why the corps seems to not be moving anywhere. It must be frustrating for the staff to get their show concept across to judges who have no idea what they are trying to do.

I judge GE for AIA (Atlantic Indoor Association). I love that caption because it allows me to sit up top and see the whole show and not just some portion like the IA judges have to do.
There are four WGI judges who does all the training for our circuit's panel. Two are educators for WGI.

That's awesome you were trained by Shirley! She is a great philosopher when it comes to color guard judging. She and George Olivero wrote the book on judging.

I remember when she would judge for us in DCI.....she always was excited!

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"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

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