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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:22 am 
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xsabers wrote:
Blurae1 wrote:
I agree with very little he says, but on the other hand, I wish I had half his success...

In some ways, I wish HE had half his success as well...



Huh?


Is this another cheap jab?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:50 am 
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cwbjr67 wrote:
I think it is fair to ask if the activity is reaching the limits of what is possible with the boundaries that tradition sets. Except for the Cavaliers' experiment with 3 dimensional drill, where is there room to innovate without looking outside the norm?

I think you aren't giving the creative minds in DCI nearly enough credit. Toys and gimmicks don't equal innovation. From what I have seen in the last 3 years, amplified voice has resulted in zero innovation as far as show design is concerned. It has added a design element, but no true innovation.

The following quotes illustrate to me that just when we think we may have reached an end of ideas or possibilities, that in reality we likely have yet to scratch the surface of what can be created.

"The advancement of the arts, from year to year, taxes our credulity and seems to presage the arrival of that period when human improvement must end." -Henry Ellsworth’s (1843) (Emphasis added)

"It would appear that we have reached the limits of what it is possible to achieve with computer technology, although one should be careful with such statements, as they tend to sound pretty silly in 5 years." -John Von Neumann (ca. 1949) (Emphasis added)

I, for one, would love to see the 2008 Cadets (or anyone for that matter) come out with a show as revolutionary as the 1983 show was in its day.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:54 am 
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TXMystreaux wrote:
xsabers wrote:
Blurae1 wrote:
I agree with very little he says, but on the other hand, I wish I had half his success...

In some ways, I wish HE had half his success as well...



Huh?


Is this another cheap jab?


Nothing cheap about it. I wish with all of my heart that he had not been successful in pushing amplified voice, et al.

I think I've been more than transparent about my feelings about the agenda he is pushing.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:02 pm 
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xsabers wrote:
TXMystreaux wrote:
xsabers wrote:
Blurae1 wrote:
I agree with very little he says, but on the other hand, I wish I had half his success...

In some ways, I wish HE had half his success as well...



Huh?


Is this another cheap jab?


Nothing cheap about it. I wish with all of my heart that he had not been successful in pushing amplified voice, et al.

I think I've been more than transparent about my feelings about the agenda he is pushing.



Then deal with him. Let him know how you feel.

I am still not certain what you mean in terms of his success. Do you mean he has lied about his success?

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Just because your hate is masked by "free thinking" or being "open-minded" does not make it right.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:03 pm 
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xsabers wrote:
cwbjr67 wrote:
I think it is fair to ask if the activity is reaching the limits of what is possible with the boundaries that tradition sets. Except for the Cavaliers' experiment with 3 dimensional drill, where is there room to innovate without looking outside the norm?

I think you aren't giving the creative minds in DCI nearly enough credit. Toys and gimmicks don't equal innovation. From what I have seen in the last 3 years, amplified voice has resulted in zero innovation as far as show design is concerned. It has added a design element, but no true innovation.

The following quotes illustrate to me that just when we think we may have reached an end of ideas or possibilities, that in reality we likely have yet to scratch the surface of what can be created.

"The advancement of the arts, from year to year, taxes our credulity and seems to presage the arrival of that period when human improvement must end." -Henry Ellsworth’s (1843) (Emphasis added)

"It would appear that we have reached the limits of what it is possible to achieve with computer technology, although one should be careful with such statements, as they tend to sound pretty silly in 5 years." -John Von Neumann (ca. 1949) (Emphasis added)

I, for one, would love to see the 2008 Cadets (or anyone for that matter) come out with a show as revolutionary as the 1983 show was in its day.



What exactly determins innovation? Is it only new design elements that you like?

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Just because your hate is masked by "free thinking" or being "open-minded" does not make it right.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:02 pm 
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xsabers wrote:

The following quotes illustrate to me that just when we think we may have reached an end of ideas or possibilities, that in reality we likely have yet to scratch the surface of what can be created.

"The advancement of the arts, from year to year, taxes our credulity and seems to presage the arrival of that period when human improvement must end." -Henry Ellsworth’s (1843) (Emphasis added)

"It would appear that we have reached the limits of what it is possible to achieve with computer technology, although one should be careful with such statements, as they tend to sound pretty silly in 5 years." -John Von Neumann (ca. 1949) (Emphasis added)



The US Patent Office stopped issuing patents for a while in the late 19th century because they thought everything had already been invented.

:shock:


Mike


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:42 pm 
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http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/22779.html

I think that might be an urban legend. I know the quote in the link above relates to that issue and is apparently not true.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:48 pm 
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TXMystreaux wrote:
xsabers wrote:
TXMystreaux wrote:
xsabers wrote:
Blurae1 wrote:
I agree with very little he says, but on the other hand, I wish I had half his success...

In some ways, I wish HE had half his success as well...



Huh?


Is this another cheap jab?


Nothing cheap about it. I wish with all of my heart that he had not been successful in pushing amplified voice, et al.

I think I've been more than transparent about my feelings about the agenda he is pushing.



Then deal with him. Let him know how you feel.

I am still not certain what you mean in terms of his success. Do you mean he has lied about his success?


I have dealt with him directly and will continue to do so.

I am not sure where you are getting the impression that I believe he lied about anything. The facts are, he has pushed and continues to push an agenda. He has had some success in furthering that agenda. I wish he had not enjoyed that success (i.e. I wish his proposals had failed to pass).


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:04 pm 
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xsabers wrote:
TXMystreaux wrote:
xsabers wrote:
TXMystreaux wrote:
xsabers wrote:
Blurae1 wrote:
I agree with very little he says, but on the other hand, I wish I had half his success...

In some ways, I wish HE had half his success as well...



Huh?


Is this another cheap jab?


Nothing cheap about it. I wish with all of my heart that he had not been successful in pushing amplified voice, et al.

I think I've been more than transparent about my feelings about the agenda he is pushing.



Then deal with him. Let him know how you feel.

I am still not certain what you mean in terms of his success. Do you mean he has lied about his success?


I have dealt with him directly and will continue to do so.

I am not sure where you are getting the impression that I believe he lied about anything. The facts are, he has pushed and continues to push an agenda. He has had some success in furthering that agenda. I wish he had not enjoyed that success (i.e. I wish his proposals had failed to pass).



Ahh, I see. I completely misinterpreted your jab.

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Just because your hate is masked by "free thinking" or being "open-minded" does not make it right.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:07 pm 
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TXMystreaux wrote:
What exactly determins innovation? Is it only new design elements that you like?

Hardly. But I believe that standing against the bastardization of the medium is something that it is a worthwhile endeavor.

I am truly sorry that this offends you. I know you are a huge fan of the Cadets (as I once was and would love to again become). You know, I was there in '83 when they won their first DCI Championship. I was there in '87 when they again set the bar on show design and performance level. I cheered them on and watched in amazement at what they were able to accomplish. I was also there in '07 and saw something entirely different, not just in the show they were given to perform but also in the spirit of the organizational leadership; perhaps self-serving best describes the vibe...


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:00 pm 
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xsabers wrote:
TXMystreaux wrote:
What exactly determins innovation? Is it only new design elements that you like?

Hardly. But I believe that standing against the bastardization of the medium is something that it is a worthwhile endeavor.

I am truly sorry that this offends you. I know you are a huge fan of the Cadets (as I once was and would love to again become). You know, I was there in '83 when they won their first DCI Championship. I was there in '87 when they again set the bar on show design and performance level. I cheered them on and watched in amazement at what they were able to accomplish. I was also there in '07 and saw something entirely different, not just in the show they were given to perform but also in the spirit of the organizational leadership; perhaps self-serving best describes the vibe...



This is not really a Cadets issue, believe me. I am at a point where I am able to separate it all. What I have been offended by more than anything is you seem happy with what happened in Cali. You may not as an individual have booed the corps, but this is not a greay issue (IMO). You are either against it or not. Making excuses/reasons why you think the booing happened makes it seem you are in support of the behavior. I would feel the same way if this were Blue Knights, Blue Stars, The Cadets, Pioneer, etc. You get my point.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:54 pm 
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Not having been there, how bad was it...........Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:25 pm 
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Blurae1 wrote:
Not having been there, how bad was it...........Bill
Ever been to an Iggles game when the Cowboys come out of the tunnel?

Something less than that but still not pretty.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:37 am 
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OK, I too was there and did not boo. I also encouraged (successfully) my family from the same as I did with some of the others around us. I am guilty though of being one of the "shouters" mentioned by xsabers earlier in the thread. As the Cadets were leaving the field for repainting and Mr. Hopkins was still on the field I shouted: "Long Live King George".

Fortunately, we did not remain in the stands following the Blue Devils and the final announcement of scores. Should we have remained I might have been tempted to advise Mr. Hopkins not to bow to his subjects. :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:27 am 
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xsabers wrote:
I think you aren't giving the creative minds in DCI nearly enough credit. Toys and gimmicks don't equal innovation. From what I have seen in the last 3 years, amplified voice has resulted in zero innovation as far as show design is concerned. It has added a design element, but no true innovation.


If you had said that about 2005 Cadets or the other corps we have talked about, I would have totally agreed with you that vocalization was a design element only. However, the 2007 Cadets show was designed around the narrated story; without it, the theme could not have been adequately conveyed. The last two or three minutes of the show is the penultimate evidence of how a seamless and evocative integration of voice, music, and drill can be achieved. That's innovation.

Santa Clara's pit convinced me that amplification was a good move. 2005 Cadets showed me that certain types of vocalization could be effective. 2007 Cadets has proven that vocalization is an avenue to be explored further.

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