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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:48 am 
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TXMystreaux wrote:
xsabers wrote:
TXMystreaux wrote:
What exactly determins innovation? Is it only new design elements that you like?

Hardly. But I believe that standing against the bastardization of the medium is something that it is a worthwhile endeavor.

I am truly sorry that this offends you. I know you are a huge fan of the Cadets (as I once was and would love to again become). You know, I was there in '83 when they won their first DCI Championship. I was there in '87 when they again set the bar on show design and performance level. I cheered them on and watched in amazement at what they were able to accomplish. I was also there in '07 and saw something entirely different, not just in the show they were given to perform but also in the spirit of the organizational leadership; perhaps self-serving best describes the vibe...



This is not really a Cadets issue, believe me. I am at a point where I am able to separate it all. What I have been offended by more than anything is you seem happy with what happened in Cali. You may not as an individual have booed the corps, but this is not a greay issue (IMO). You are either against it or not. Making excuses/reasons why you think the booing happened makes it seem you are in support of the behavior. I would feel the same way if this were Blue Knights, Blue Stars, The Cadets, Pioneer, etc. You get my point.


Spot on. The booing and nasty comments serve the purpose of displaying to the world that drum corps fans, members, directors, and alumni are uncivilized boors. It shows that visions that go against the grain of the accepted norm will be met with ridicule, mockery, and persecution.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:50 am 
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xsabers wrote:
TXMystreaux wrote:
What exactly determins innovation? Is it only new design elements that you like?

Hardly. But I believe that standing against the bastardization of the medium is something that it is a worthwhile endeavor.

I am truly sorry that this offends you. I know you are a huge fan of the Cadets (as I once was and would love to again become). You know, I was there in '83 when they won their first DCI Championship. I was there in '87 when they again set the bar on show design and performance level. I cheered them on and watched in amazement at what they were able to accomplish. I was also there in '07 and saw something entirely different, not just in the show they were given to perform but also in the spirit of the organizational leadership; perhaps self-serving best describes the vibe...


Actually, from my view, and posts of others I have seen, the leadership today is FAR less self-serving than they were in the 80's. They are taking a lot more humanistic approach to the Cadet experience than they did back then.

Mike


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:18 am 
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I think there are some varying definitions of evolution in this discussion.

A horn with slide & Rotor becoming a piston valve horn, moving from G to b flat. I believe that is an evolutionary change.

Drum and Bugle Corps is just that: Drums, and Bugles.
If we change what we do to become what others do, then are we worthy of our own name?

It seems if you don't know the music, but you are not narrated you are inaccessible. Where as you can play something totally random with narration, it is great entertainment.

Marching Music's Major League... That tells me I don't want it to be something everyone does. In my H. S. marching band back in the day, many of the woodwinds would learn a brass instrument or guard so they could march... they didn't want to have their instruments allowed in, that would be a different activity.

I still stand by my statement that booing is acceptable. You say no, but then use words to the same effect for something you don't like. I have taken the time to write messages to directors, if I get a reply it is usually that I might have limited artistic appreciation, or that my feedback is appreciated, but at this time they are going in a different direction. Usually there is no response.
So to get heard, to put fourth my dissatisfaction, it would be acceptable to boo. It is those that sit back and say or do nothing thinking that by writing their comments here they are getting something changed.

If I wanted to see marching band I'd go watch marching band either BOA, or college. I want to go see drum and bugle corps, I GO TO A DRUM AND BUGLE CORPS SHOW! (This said to me by about 25 current H.S. marching band members)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:40 am 
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cwbjr67 wrote:
If you had said that about 2005 Cadets or the other corps we have talked about, I would have totally agreed with you that vocalization was a design element only. However, the 2007 Cadets show was designed around the narrated story; without it, the theme could not have been adequately conveyed. The last two or three minutes of the show is the penultimate evidence of how a seamless and evocative integration of voice, music, and drill can be achieved. That's innovation.


I will agree that the narration was the thread that connected the show. Otherwise it was a mishmash of unconnected themes. It was like "Peter and the Wolf" on a drum corps field. I can't imagine SCV doing "Young Person's Guide..." with its narration as it is intended for an audience of children. It wasn't necessary in order to adequately communicate the theme to a drum corps audience. If this show had been in book form it might have been called "Drum Corps for Dummies".

I have to respectfully disagree as this show was far from seamless. It was almost nothing BUT seams with the thread of patronizing narration trying to hold it together. I don't consider any of that to be innovative in the least.

If you like such things, I would have to say Bluecoats' show was far more innovative in its use of voice than was Cadets' program.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:41 am 
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Well shame on you for feeling it is okay to boo at these performers...just shameful. :td:

There is a lengthy post on DCP from a member of the Cadets that shared his/her very personal feelings that he/she felt when they were at Quarter Finals. Read their post here: http://www.drumcorpsplanet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103279 (You'll have to scroll down a little bit to 'thePerfectbuzz'. If you can read that and still be happy that you booed at them.......


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:49 am 
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Haven't we all been at shows where there's a small corps that performs at a low level and their score shows it? Drum corps audiences do not boo those corps or those performers - quite the opposite. They might not receive rousing applause, but never boos.

Drum corps audiences don't boo performers, they don't boo bad shows... and y'all know it. Drum corps audiences don't even boo top corps that have a train wreck on the field that night - we just don't.

But what about what happened in Pasedena?

Were the marching members actually booed? No, they weren't - they had no control over what was happening. They were in the unfortunate position of being on the field when their director (or the actions of their director) did what he did.

Were the marching members affected by the booing? Yes, sure, and that's too bad. It's also too bad when members are affected by poor field conditions, rain storms, sun in your eyes, a bus breakdown, missing equipment, etc. It's part of it.

I don't agree with the philosophy that says that we can cheer but can't express anything negative.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:09 am 
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Kimberly wrote:
Haven't we all been at shows where there's a small corps that performs at a low level and their score shows it? Drum corps audiences do not boo those corps or those performers - quite the opposite. They might not receive rousing applause, but never boos.

Drum corps audiences don't boo performers, they don't boo bad shows... and y'all know it. Drum corps audiences don't even boo top corps that have a train wreck on the field that night - we just don't.

But what about what happened in Pasedena?

Were the marching members actually booed? No, they weren't - they had no control over what was happening. They were in the unfortunate position of being on the field when their director (or the actions of their director) did what he did.

Were the marching members affected by the booing? Yes, sure, and that's too bad. It's also too bad when members are affected by poor field conditions, rain storms, sun in your eyes, a bus breakdown, missing equipment, etc. It's part of it.

I don't agree with the philosophy that says that we can cheer but can't express anything negative.



Those marchers have expressed feelings that they were booed. So any notion that states the boos were not for them really doesn't matter. They were on the field to receive them anyway.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:27 pm 
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Reading that post doesn't change my opinion. I would still rather hear boos in the stands then come home and read all of the reviews that said how boring or bad or forgetful my show was.

So I ask... how does one let the people know they are dissatisfied if they will not answer emails?

Why is it that I have to accept change? Why is it that D&B fanshave to accept change? Everything changes yes, but why can't we have change without making a totally different product?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:56 pm 
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Robb_D wrote:
Reading that post doesn't change my opinion. I would still rather hear boos in the stands then come home and read all of the reviews that said how boring or bad or forgetful my show was.

So I ask... how does one let the people know they are dissatisfied if they will not answer emails?

Why is it that I have to accept change? Why is it that D&B fanshave to accept change? Everything changes yes, but why can't we have change without making a totally different product?



Hopkins will answer, and sometimes even post, your emails. Not a problem there.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:34 pm 
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I feel like the booing is uncalled for. I think we need to keep in mind the fact for the most part that these marchers if not still kids, are at most amateurs and very young adults.

It was speculated what would have happened if it were a corps director other than Hopkins. If perhaps it was one of the lower scoring corps, irrevelant, it wasn't. It was Hopkins, it was Garfield. Lets call a spade a spade, people don't like him, therefore they don't like Garfield. At that time & place he was an easy target and people got him & Garfield, they got'em good. Hate reared it's ugly head once again in drum corps.

Keep in mind, I'm not a Hopkins apologist. I'm in favor of vitually nothing he says. Right is right, rather than allow my kids to be injured I'd have done the same thing..........Bill


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:59 pm 
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Blurae1 wrote:
I feel like the booing is uncalled for. I think we need to keep in mind the fact for the most part that these marchers if not still kids, are at most amateurs and very young adults.

It was speculated what would have happened if it were a corps director other than Hopkins. If perhaps it was one of the lower scoring corps, irrevelant, it wasn't. It was Hopkins, it was Garfield. Lets call a spade a spade, people don't like him, therefore they don't like Garfield. At that time & place he was an easy target and people got him & Garfield, they got'em good. Hate reared it's ugly head once again in drum corps.

Keep in mind, I'm not a Hopkins apologist. I'm in favor of vitually nothing he says. Right is right, rather than allow my kids to be injured I'd have done the same thing..........Bill


Absolutely, booing is never acceptable. And yes, the relining issue was for the safety of the kids. However, it had to affect them and their performance. One other thing not to be forgotten. The Blue Devils also had their start time pushed back by the relining of the field. I am sure they had completed their warmups and were ready to take their place in the tunnel when the whole incident came up.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:52 pm 
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You are completely right. In all fairness I didn't think about BD pushing their start time back. However, it's DCI's responsibility to maintain the field therefore any complaint BD has is with DCI, not Garfield........Bill


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:03 pm 
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Other then marking off the starting line set, how many performing members use hash marks in a show? You look to the sideline and the form you are in. Looking for a hash mark atleast a few years ago was something we didn't do.

If you look for a hash mark, then your performance is at the field, not the sideline, and stand.

Understand, I have the utmost respect for the kids who perform the crap out of their show. I'm sure you all doubt that. Remember that I was once a marching member as well.
I don't necessarily support the product on the field, more so the BOAzation of DRUM AND BUGLE CORPS. I grew up in BOA, College marching band and Drum and Bugle corps. I respect all three. I enjoy all three. I understand that one show design from one may have influence on a show in a different forum. But that doesn't mean that we have to turn D&B into Band.
I don't mind singing on the field, Scouts did it in 1993, and I thought it was swell... but they did it without having to talk to me about it during the show. They didn't bid to add more instruments, or people, or whatever. They used what they had, and pulled it off...

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:40 am 
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xsabers wrote:
I will agree that the narration was the thread that connected the show. Otherwise it was a mishmash of unconnected themes. It was like "Peter and the Wolf" on a drum corps field. I can't imagine SCV doing "Young Person's Guide..." with its narration as it is intended for an audience of children. It wasn't necessary in order to adequately communicate the theme to a drum corps audience. If this show had been in book form it might have been called "Drum Corps for Dummies".

I have to respectfully disagree as this show was far from seamless. It was almost nothing BUT seams with the thread of patronizing narration trying to hold it together. I don't consider any of that to be innovative in the least.


I cannot fathom how anyone can think that the Cadets' narration was patronizing--relativistic, yes. It was about the Cadets' personal truths--not the folks in the stands.

Vocalization should be judged by performance, and editorial critique should be limited to restricting speech that infringes upon or attacks human dignity.

Based on your comments, you, for the most part, are judging the performance and thematic cohesion and coherence of this show. I respect that greatly. However, most negative comments from others are directed against WHAT was said and WHO they think said it rather than HOW it was said. They are bringing their preconceptions to the table which skews their ability to judge ANY show fairly.

I understand that we are emotionally invested in this activity. We give our time, talent, and possesions to it--our sweat and passion. Yet, we must remember that, as Rick Warren would say, it's not about us. As each generation has expressed its unique perspectives and gifts through drum corps, that opportunity should be afforded to future members without the threat of ridicule and impoliteness. 8-)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:44 am 
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cwbjr67 wrote:
xsabers wrote:
I will agree that the narration was the thread that connected the show. Otherwise it was a mishmash of unconnected themes. It was like "Peter and the Wolf" on a drum corps field. I can't imagine SCV doing "Young Person's Guide..." with its narration as it is intended for an audience of children. It wasn't necessary in order to adequately communicate the theme to a drum corps audience. If this show had been in book form it might have been called "Drum Corps for Dummies".

I have to respectfully disagree as this show was far from seamless. It was almost nothing BUT seams with the thread of patronizing narration trying to hold it together. I don't consider any of that to be innovative in the least.


I cannot fathom how anyone can think that the Cadets' narration was patronizing--relativistic, yes. It was about the Cadets' personal truths--not the folks in the stands.

Vocalization should be judged by performance, and editorial critique should be limited to restricting speech that infringes upon or attacks human dignity.

Based on your comments, you, for the most part, are judging the performance and thematic cohesion and coherence of this show. I respect that greatly. However, most negative comments from others are directed against WHAT was said and WHO they think said it rather than HOW it was said. They are bringing their preconceptions to the table which skews their ability to judge ANY show fairly.

I understand that we are emotionally invested in this activity. We give our time, talent, and possesions to it--our sweat and passion. Yet, we must remember that, as Rick Warren would say, it's not about us. As each generation has expressed its unique perspectives and gifts through drum corps, that opportunity should be afforded to future members without the threat of ridicule and impoliteness. 8-)



It's only patronizing when the person listening makes it about them and their personal feelings toward the man and the organization. In reality, the show was a drum corps show about a particular drum corps.

What needs to be realized (and admitted by a couple of you) is that this show would never in a million years have been given a chance.

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