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Re: My DCI Finals Review

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:19 am
by LAMystreaux
CFI BLOOO wrote:
LAMystreaux wrote: I watched intently at the movement, from row 11 on the 42 yd line a couple of weeks ago, and there just was not the amount of movement, in terms of actual marching that people claim. . .not when doing a comparitive discussion. The chair stuff was a joke. Sorry. But they did one or two drill moves through the chairs, and beyond that a lot of sitting, standing, etc. Had other corps, especially The Cadets done this (well, I guess that have) they would have been the joke of discussion all year.

Now I get done talking about the moving and manipulation that the hornlind did with the chairs and you say "... they did one or two drill moves through the chairs, and beyond that a lot of sitting, standing, etc."

Now this is just an intentional understatement. Anybody who saw the program knows better.
No, it is not. . .not when talking about the hornline. I even went back and watched a video the other day. They do a weaving move to get into files with the chairs. . .that is their big move with the chairs and probably the most difficult usage. The guard uses the chairs, imo, moreso and more effectively than the hornline. I'll discuss this all day, but please don't mistake my opinion as overtly biased and "made up" for my own purposes.

There is a reason thousands booed their score. Yes, I was there, and yes, most were ticked. This notion that the show was that difficult and the many who disagree are biased and making it up is just for the birds.

As far as The Cadets, sure they have had more than their share of design farts the past several years. But the fact remains that overwhelmingly they gave the fans what the fans wanted this summer. The electricity that they (along with SCV, Crown, and even BAC to an extent) created in Lucas was amazing. I'll take that over super clean, sterile, and playing it safe any day of the week, regardless of placement.

Re: My DCI Finals Review

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:07 am
The most difficult thing that the Devils did with the chairs was was pick them up move them to other locations while marching and unfolding them in sync with one hand for a chair standing company front. The second most difficult thing that they did with the chairs was taking a single step backward with one foot and lift in a ripple effect while playing. The third most difficult thing that they did with the chairs was 'scatter' in reverse while doing that interesting hopping move to specific predetermined locations on the field.

The LEAST difficult thing that they did with the chairs was also the most visual... when they moved through them (that is not difficult... no more difficult that marching around lines and hash marks that you aren't supposed to be on that are otherwise completely out of the way from your point to point line of travel in the first place! If this kind of move is what you consider to be the most difficult then I would assume that the Cavaliers is your drumcorps of choice to win every year.

That's the point that I'm making... the corps that is the most visual is not neccessarily the corps wih the most difficult and point deserving program. That's what the judges are concerned with. YES... even in the category of GE. I don't doubt that the Devils were not the crowd pleaser. Crowd pleasers don't always win... c'mon.

Boy this is the most spirited disagreement that I have had on this forum in a long time.

Re: My DCI Finals Review

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:11 am
by LAMystreaux
CFI BLOOO wrote: Boy this is the most spirited disagreement that I have had on this forum in a long time.
:) And it will continue to be, on this subject at least. Kudos to BD, but all that you described can't compare, imo, to the tempos, direction, changes, meters tackled, and sheer overall movement Cadets offered. In my eyes, it is a stark difference in difficulty.

No biggie. Wouldn't be too interesting around here if all we did was agree.

Re: My DCI Finals Review

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:52 pm
by rysa4
Pretty much agree. After watching SCV, Cadets, and Crown shows, BD was just kinda like...."well OK, thanks."

I had no issue with placement but of course the gap in scores seemed a bit silly. The only thing I can think of is that the judges at the upper levels couldnt actually hear much except an echo vortex.

Re: My DCI Finals Review

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:54 am
by craiga
I was fortunate enough to be at over 20 shows this summer....(I was a volunteer with BAC). As a drill guy, here are my thoughts, for whatever they are worth. NOBODY had the level of high impact-squeaky clean drill sets AND MORE IMPORTANTLY transitions than HNC. Blue Devils visual staff have even admitted that many of their moves were not even charted this year.....just get there from here kind of stuff. And, as far as CC is concerned, they have singlehandedly brought back the standstill concert piece...(check out the 1:02 of complete visual shutdown during their snippet of "Somewhere"). Sorry guys, but to me, 62 seconds of sequential body moves do NOT substitute for a visual design.

My biggest concern over this result is not the feelings of the members and staff of HNC. They've seen much worse. Rather, it is the DCI trend to perpetuate that which is rewarded.

Are we going to see 15 corps in 2010 cut the number of their drill sets in half and try to "get away with" various squats and gestures and somersaults?> I hope not.

IMO, there should have been noone within a point of HNC in Ensemble Visual this year.

Re: My DCI Finals Review

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:58 am
by rysa4
Hey Craiga -

I agree and disagree with you, but more importantly, just want to have the discussion a bit, because this comes up. How much can we all expect technical difficulty to impact scores past a certain level. I can tell you that George H. told me this year ( as well as a small group), that it is difficult to expect return in scoring based on superior technical difficulty, and its hard to have that discussion with the judges, especially if there is some thing to fault at the execution level. He said that he's on the opposite side when he judges BOA stuff and hears the same arguments from band directors that he himself makes with judges in DCI.

So, well, yes-- the Cadets drills make ALL of the other corps drills seem easy and simple(OPINION). The technical difficulty and risk factor with the Cadets drills are ALWAYS higher. But here's the deal - if this was rewarded with some semblance of any unlimited technical difficulty multiplier, the Cadets would win every year. While I am sure I'll get heavy flack for that-- what you are saying is right about the other corps and downtime, as well as mixing drill difficulty with the music ( impacts drum scores).

Anyway, here is the question- so what is a '10'? ie; what is a perfect score? At what level of difficulty has a corps designed something tough enough to 'make it' if they execute? From the results of the last few years, we see the bar is lower than where the Cadets design their show.

Then there is this - this year a Cadets drummer fell down during the show; this messed up the visual and drill. How is this taken into account? Well the drum judge absolutely crossed out the corps entirely- dropping what looked like a 3rd or 4th place finish in drums to seventh and a 19.2 to 19.4 score to an 18.5. As a former Cadets snare drummer, I really cannot fault the judge; you are either at a certain level of excellence or you aren't. Thems the breaks, and you are only as good as your last show.

The question is partially for DCI, but also partially for the Cadets- the Cadets have the option of decoupling tough drill from tough musical phrases, thereby lowering their risk and better guaranteeing there score, or they can keep doing what they do and take a championship every 4 to 5 years or so, or when ever its politically appropriate for it to happen and the stars line up.

I feel the overall quality of the top corps has improved from when I marched-- in those days there really was a standout winner every year and the differences were easier to define than the discussion we are having.

Re: My DCI Finals Review

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:38 am
by craiga
Ah, this has been the age-old discussion. And, when comparing HNC to the Cavies for example, it really gets into a style preference debate. However, I had the adavantage to watch Crown and Cadets back to back almost every night for two weeks of tour (BAC was touring with both for much of tour). I watched both shows intently each time.

The difference in not just difficulty, but also demand (THE VOCABULARY OF WHAT IS BEING PERFORMED), was startling. As some on here know, I'm not necessarily a big Cadets fan, but the lack of credit for their visual design was appalling. I'm sorry but for a potential World Champion, Crown had times in their show with NO DRILL AT ALL, and BD was right there with them. If you or I tried to get away with 1:02 of visual shutdown in a high school band that we teach, the judges would have been all over us for lack of enhancement, etc. I've been around a long time, and I am fully aware that visual numbers are not influenced by the number of drill pages one has. I just think that both Crown and BD got away with murder in terms of lack of movement across the field.

As for the snare drummer collision, that, in my mind, should have affected the performance visual score but not the ensemble visual or the percussion numbers. I am not suggesting the Cadets should have won or the BD (or Crown for that matter) aren't great drum corps. I just don't like the direction the design element seems to be heading.

Re: My DCI Finals Review

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:43 am
by craiga
The only item that is more shocking is that apparently, LAMystreaux and I agree on something! 8-)

Re: My DCI Finals Review

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:13 pm
by LAMystreaux
More than just one thing. . .I thought BAC was spectacular this summer!

Re: My DCI Finals Review

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:31 pm
by craiga
LOL...well then, it's official....Hell HAS frozen over! :^^: